[NT] xNTx fidelity

[Totenkindly]

The INTP scores are fascinating.

 

[Kra]

Well that's a bigger question... "would yeu do it if there were no restrictions, if yeu wouldn't feel guilty, if noone cared, if yeur SO didn't feel bad about it?"

Durr the answer is YES.

The only reason we DON'T is because we'd get in trouble, or because we were taught it was wrong. If yeu want to do it and hold yeurself back 'because it's wrong' , then if yeu weren't taught it was wrong, and it wasn't taboo, yeu would've done it normally.

The only advantage yeu have there at all is the ability to go against yeur instincts, and instead go with the training yeu were given. Seriously, by not commiting adultery, yeu have just justified yeurself as being as intelligent as... a dog. Because yeu went against basic instinct, and did something yeu were trained to do out of fear of being punished.

Is this a bad thing? Not really, but it doesn't really mean yeu have any 'true' moral high ground, as the moral wasn't held by every civilization either, see the example of rome previously. So going "zomg I don't do that because people say it's wrong" just means yeu're accepting a moral that was told to yeu, not validating it for yeurself whether it's really something yeu truly believe, or if yeu're just going along with it because yeu're scared of reprisal.

Yeu may truly believe it, in which case I'm quite glad that yeu're standing up for whot yeu believe in, even if it can be very difficult to do at times. I just don't like seeing people think they're morally superiour for showing off they're too scared to provide their own opinion and morals and just latch onto the herd mentality for fear of being kicked out of the herd.

Think carefully about yeur opinions and morals, don't just blindly follow everyone else "because it's the right thing to do". If yeu don't know WHY it's the right thing to do, then yeu aren't moral at all, yeu're just scared of getting caught.

I've often equated this kind of setup to "The Ring of Gyges" from Plato's Republic. I must say that I agree with Socrates on this. There are men/women that hold to a standard for reasons other than social ones.

I would not, and have never, cheated in a monogamous relationship. My reasoning, albeit somewhat selfish, is simple. I value my integrity and my strength of will far more than any amount of sexual gratification. Why? Because I realize how temporary any sexual satisfaction is, versus how lasting my integrity is.

I also foresee a great deal of unwanted stress resulting from infidelity, and I'm not inclined to waste my time with such things.

If a person I'm seeing is proposing an open relationship, I will end the relationship all together. It is obvious at that point neither of us will be able to satisfy the others' needs. I require the same exclusivity that I give, and I cannot give anything contrary to that.

My rigidity may end up with me being alone in the end, but I'll be alone with my integrity, and that is a perfectly acceptable outcome for me.

On a side-note, yes, I'm aware of how J I sound.

 

[cafe]

The INTP scores are fascinating.

Yes, they are. I can't remember if there is a poll like it on INTPc, but I think the results would be more diverse with a broader sampling.

I don't think INTPs are especially inclined to cheat, but I think some of them have trouble ending a current relationship despite being dissatisfied because they dislike closure and/or confrontation.

For that reason they seem to sometimes . . . leave themselves open to circumstances that will force their or their partner's hand, ie. the person they are cheating with will push them to end their relationship or their partner will find out about the cheating and end the relationship.

 

[jenocyde]

i haven't been in many 'defined' relationships, but they have always been open relationships. so, technically, there has been no cheating. from a monogamous point of view - definitely.

This. I have never technically cheated, but I have pushed for open relationships. If, however, I am forced to commit because I like the person and don't want to lose him, I am utterly and completely faithful. I don't take promises lightly. That being said, there is no danger of that at all anyway if I am head over heels for someone. Even in completely open relationships, I still end up behaving monogamously.

 

[tinkerbell]

Yes, they are. I can't remember if there is a poll like it on INTPc, but I think the results would be more diverse with a broader sampling.

I don't think INTPs are especially inclined to cheat, but I think some of them have trouble ending a current relationship despite being dissatisfied because they dislike closure and/or confrontation.

For that reason they seem to sometimes . . . leave themselves open to circumstances that will force their or their partner's hand, ie. the person they are cheating with will push them to end their relationship or their partner will find out about the cheating and end the relationship.

I'm not convinced you will get much of a spread of answers... NTs are suppose to be faithful psycologically so these results are only a little surpising to me.

Can you take the survey over and do it on INTP? I'd me interested to see if there was much difference.

For what its worth I had and INTP flirt very heavily with me, but in the type of way I kind of knew he would never follow through.

 

[cafe]

I'm not convinced you will get much of a spread of answers... NTs are suppose to be faithful psycologically so these results are only a little surpising to me.

Can you take the survey over and do it on INTP? I'd me interested to see if there was much difference.

For what its worth I had and INTP flirt very heavily with me, but in the type of way I kind of knew he would never follow through.

It is the forums that have influenced my perceptions. Way more INTP hookups than I would have expected, including people that are in relationships.

 

[tinkerbell]

Cafe, why not poll them, it would at least validate the finding... it's pretty increadible that so few are unfaithful across the whole NT group

 

[Cypocalypse]

For what its worth I had and INTP flirt very heavily with me, but in the type of way I kind of knew he would never follow through.

Is it because of the open-ended way INTP's do flirting?

 

[tinkerbell]

no because there was something about him that I knew he didn't have the spine to follow through.... I think it was all to try and keep himself young (if he only knew I was more than 10 years older than him)

 

[cafe]

Cafe, why not poll them, it would at least validate the finding... it's pretty increadible that so few are unfaithful across the whole NT group

Because it sounds too much like work and I'm just not that motivated right now. As long as it's not my INTP doing the cheating I'm not overly concerned. I don't think he's that kind of guy, but he also knows I'm crazy enough to cut his weenie off if I ever found out he put it in someone else.

 

[tinkerbell]

he also knows I'm crazy enough to cut his weenie off if I ever found out he put it in someone else.

LOL I thought that was feamle NT terratory

LOL

 

[Tewt]

I put down occasionally unfaithful, but I think when the situation is clear I've always been faithful. When I was younger, I sometimes started dating someone else before ending the old relationship completely or dated two or three guys at the same time. However, I thought "dating" was a funny concept in and of itself and most of the time failed to tell my suitors that I wasn't looking for a monogamous relationship or even anything serious. I thought it was just assumed that we all did it because we were so young and nothing was ever serious. And for whatever reason, many guys tried to go the serious route in every single relationship with me.

So I learned to start telling people upfront and make the relationship terms clear. That didnt always stop guys from just assuming I wanted more though, which I guess is another topic.

 

[FDG]

I'm totally faithful. If I'm in a relationship, that means I've made a conscious choice to be in, and thus it would be nonsensical to be unfaithful.

every single man i know has at least had a one night stand while being in a relationship. so me and quite a few of my friends have come to a conclusion that a faithful man is a fairytale creature - a lot of people talk about them but noone has actually ever seen one...

Mm, that's weird. At least say, 75 % of my male friends have been faithful in their relationships. Past 18 years of age you're considered a bit of a scum if you're unfaithful to your girlfriend (you're not considered badly if you just sleep with many girls, but if you do while you're with somebody, yes). That's perhaps due to the catholic church's influence.

 

[Katsuni]

The INTP scores are fascinating.

That they are, 100% always faithful so far. Unfortunately, this's an open poll reviewed by one's peers... it can be viewed as a contest "the INTP's are winning! I can't let myself bring them down!" or as a matter of honour, fear, or several other reasons. Sadly, it means that the answers presented are not neccesarily 100% accurate, as some people won't consider themselves cheating, others will be unwilling to admit to such. And of course some will just be paralyzed by the concept of it that they really AREN'T because of the risk vs reward mentality. Which's normally a very good way to do things, but sometimes people don't balance that equasion out very well... see our next quote for referance.

If a person I'm seeing is proposing an open relationship, I will end the relationship all together. It is obvious at that point neither of us will be able to satisfy the others' needs. I require the same exclusivity that I give, and I cannot give anything contrary to that.

My rigidity may end up with me being alone in the end, but I'll be alone with my integrity, and that is a perfectly acceptable outcome for me.

On a side-note, yes, I'm aware of how J I sound.

I'm glad yeu're aware of that, it helps this out alot XD

The point is that this's a prime example of someone being so excessively insistant on a fairy tale relationship, that rather than work towards an understanding, they'd rather ditch it entirely and give up the second a problem arises. The suggestion of a 'open' relationship is one that's generally mentioned from the start, so before it's even really begun as a relationship, and they've truly had time to learn more about the other person, they've already given up all hope and called it quits.

Now, this CAN be viewed the other way, I'm not just going to sacrifice yeu XD The act that someone would make such a suggestion can also be a prime example of early warning signs and seeing into their mind early. This can mean that yeu know they aren't that serious, however it can also mean that they're like EPP...

i haven't been in many 'defined' relationships, but they have always been open relationships. so, technically, there has been no cheating. from a monogamous point of view - definitely.

to make the relationship 'open' has always been my suggestion. a very rational one, too - i don't know ANY MAN who has been faithful. not one. and i have many male friends (friend friends) who have told me that. every single man i know has at least had a one night stand while being in a relationship. so me and quite a few of my friends have come to a conclusion that a faithful man is a fairytale creature - a lot of people talk about them but noone has actually ever seen one...

there is just no point to expect someone to be faithful if it's not going to happen. ever.
on the other hand - if he's free to shag around, so am i.
hence the open relationships.

In this case, they aren't being unfaithful from the start, they're just wary after being burned time and time again without deviation. A relationship is built on trust, however, if that trust has been broken time and again, over and over, 100% of the time, that trust is not given freely anymore and must then be earned. Getting pissy over someone being cautious is understandable, but also isn't really that fair to the person who got burnt either. They have every right to be a bit wary of suitors claiming "zomg trust me I wubz uu!"

Personally, I find the "black and white" approach to be barbaric and silly. Yeu're not going to EVER have a 100% perfect relationship. Dropping things at the drop of a hat because yeu feel like yeu need to cheat on them is NOT the way to go. This's the point at which yeu stop and discuss things, yeu have needs, as much as anyone else, and if they're not satisfying those needs (100% of all relationships at SOME point in their history, will have something that isn't perfect and needs addressing), then yeu need to bring it to their attention, and work out something to fill those needs, preferably with yeur SO being the one to fill them, but if that's completely out of the question, then they will have to work with yeu towards a viable solution otherwise. If they refuse to work with yeu, and refuse to compensate in any way shape or form, and still expect yeu to blindly be faithful to them when they can't even show yeu the slightest bit of respect, THEN yeu can drop the relationship.

Note that the only reason for 'cheating' in this sense, is if it's condoned, in which case it's not really technically cheating anymore.

The point is that we will eventually hit a point, or a situation, where our SO is incapable of providing whot we need. Some people cheat, others give up and just leave. Both of these are pathetic and have got to stop. If yeu want a real relationship, yeu need to work for it, and it takes compromise and communication. Yeah those things sound tacky, and that's because people throw the terms around without any clue of whot they're talking about. The point is that when yeu feel like giving up, or giving in, yeu should instead be communicating with them the fact that yeu are lacking an essential need for yeur wellbeing, be it mental, physical, or emotional. Let them know the desire is there and that it has to be sated, and then discuss the possibilities on how to sate that desire. If they truly care, they'll compromise a solution in one way or another to satisfy yeur needs. There's no point in completely ditching someone yeu otherwise love unconditionally... because there's one tiny little thing about them that yeu can't provide for. Jeeze that's just insane, yeu'll never find anything long term that way UNLESS the other person is cheating behind yeur back to cover yeur flaws. This's where cheating comes in most of the time sadly... with good intentions >.< Because they are scared that it'll hurt yeu to admit to yeu that yeu're not 100% perfect and that there's something they need that yeu're not providing, and then they go looking elsewhere for it, because they're scared yeu'll just break the whole thing off if yeu learn yeu're not giving them everything they need that very instant. Both of these mindsets create the other and they're both sickeningly commonplace.

If yeu wouldn't give up at the first sign of trouble, then they wouldn't hide those troubles from yeu, and yeu'd have a far healthier relationship for it!

At the same time, yeu can't just ASSUME they're going to break things off at the first sign of trouble, and just try to take matters into yeur own hands behind their back and hope they don't find out. If they aren't getting yeu off, don't fake the orgasm and then go cheating behind their backs to get it... that's seriously just stupid. Let them know, and work on the matter until yeu find something that works.

And FFS DO NOT DITCH THEM just because they brought up the fact that yeu didn't make them climax that one time. Or the time before it. Maybe yeu're doing something wrong, or their preferances have changed, it happens, deal with it. It doesn't mean yeu're impotent, it means that yeu have to do a bit of trying new stuff out, and talking with them to find whot their newly developed kinks or needs are, so yeu can sate those instead. If yeu just give up and fall into despair the second something doesn't perform flawlessly, yeu're just perpetuating the cheating cycle.

Seriously, both of yeu, knock it the hell off. Yeu could've been perfect for each other, and yeu just blew each other off rather than work things out.

The point I've been trying to stress here so much is that cheating is a normal form of covering for things that're missing. The problem is, people have this horrible habit of deciding this unilaterally without telling their SO, and then just go off and do it so they "don't hurt their feelings". All yeu end up doing is growing more and more annoyed that yeur SO isn't providing whot yeu need, and then growing spiteful at them, for something they don't even know they did wrong in the first place. To fix any problem, yeu have to know there's a problem to begin with, admit it, and put effort into repairing it. If yeu refuse to even tell them it exists, then the very first step is missing and they have zero chance of fixing things so HURP DE DURP of course they're going to continue to fail to satisfy yeur cravings, whotever they are. This just gets yeu mad at them until yeu break it off yeurself or let them know yeu've been cheating so they'll do it for yeu. Oh joy, so now yeu've just broken everything by "trying to be nice to them". If yeu had've just given them the CHANCE to fix it, then yeu wouldn't've single handedly managed to screw over the whole relationship. All yeu hurt was yeurself. And because yeu didn't learn yeur lesson, and still blame them for the fact that they didn't provide something they didn't know they weren't providing, then yeu're going to do it AGAIN to the next one yeu meet. And the one after that. And the one after that. Why do yeu think people can be divorced 4 times in a row? Because they didn't learn anything the first time in most cases. Yes, there are exceptions where osmeone just has reaaaaaaally bad luck and someone does horrible things to them in front of their face or behind their back, and there may not be any way to tell this could happen until after years of having already lived with them... rushing into marriage is another problem but we'll deal with that later. The fact is that virtually all of the multiple divorcees have had more than ample opportunity to save their relationships, they just either didn't want to, didn't care, or didn't try because of worry that they may cause additional damage. If it's damaged, it needs fixed, ignoring it doesn't fix anything and just makes it worse.

Now then, I'm going to try to paraphraze this as simply as I can for both sides of this issue:

Ditchers: Don't give up at the first sign of trouble. If they say they have an issue that needs resolved, then try to resolve the issue, don't go "WHAAAA" and run off crying that yeu weren't perfect. Too bad, if yeu want a relationship to work long term, yeu have to work for it. Better yeurself, and strive to meet their needs. If yeu can't do this, yeu didn't deserve them in the first place.

Cheaters: Same thing, don't bugger off at the first opportunity just because they didn't provide. And DON'T run off with someone else to get whot yeu want either! Yeu have got to explain whot's lacking, and make sure yeur SO has a chance to fill the gap. If yeu don't give them the opportunity to fix it, then yeu haven't met yeur end of the bargain either. It takes work to fix a relationship, if yeu want it fixed, yeu have to put effort into it, part of that effort is discussing the problem and trying to help work out solutions to fix it. If yeu give up on them before even giving them a chance, by running off without telling them they even had a chance to fix something, then yeu haven't done the most basic step. Get over yeurself and don't assume they'll ditch yeu the first second they get a chance if they aren't perfect. If they do give up as soon as yeu say there's a problem, then they obviously didn't care enough, and now yeu're free to get whot yeu need elsewhere from someone who is willing to put effort into this.




Now then, kiss and make up. Yeu're going to if I have to hold yeu at gunpoint to do it.

 

[jenocyde]

^good lord. do you have the cliff notes, with proper spelling?

 

[Katsuni]

^good lord. do you have the cliff notes, with proper spelling?

I did. Then I pushed them off the cliff. And dropped a rock down after them just in case.

 

[epp]

This. I have never technically cheated, but I have pushed for open relationships. If, however, I am forced to commit because I like the person and don't want to lose him, I am utterly and completely faithful. I don't take promises lightly. That being said, there is no danger of that at all anyway if I am head over heels for someone. Even in completely open relationships, I still end up behaving monogamously.

yes, exactly. even if i have been in open relationships, i have mostly ended up behaving monogamously. "mostly" meaning in most of those open relationships, not that i have mostly been monogamous in all those relationships, just to be clear . i can't really explain why, but it sort of has been like... irrelevant... to sleep with someone else. but i have appreciated the freedom to do so if i just wanted to.

 

[epp]

Mm, that's weird. At least say, 75 % of my male friends have been faithful in their relationships. Past 18 years of age you're considered a bit of a scum if you're unfaithful to your girlfriend (you're not considered badly if you just sleep with many girls, but if you do while you're with somebody, yes). That's perhaps due to the catholic church's influence.

Actually, I'm pretty sure it's a cultural and historical thing. Partly, at least. But I'm not going to move to another country soon, so...
Unless Fluffywolf wants to be my prey, of course, then I could move to the Netherlands anytime...

 

[Valiant]

DAMMIT! Who the hell destroyed the ENTJ statistics!?!?!?!?!
Give me a name, and his/her head on a plate!!!

 

[entropie]

DAMMIT! Who the hell destroyed the ENTJ statistics!?!?!?!?!
Give me a name, and his/her head on a plate!!!

Guess who