[ENTP] The ENTP shrug?

[jenocyde]

And the part you seem to keep missing-likely becuase you are not really reading the posts in your self centric appraisal of the issue-is that he THANKS ME FOR MY ADVICE.

I tried to help you, I really did. I can't begin to describe how this post reeks of judgment. What does his sex life have to do with his job performance? Why is it even your business? For every relevant point, there are 2 more that just seem inherently personal... like you have a vendetta buried in there somewhere.

If he's that much of an asshole, fire him. There are plenty of bright people in this world.

 

[Amargith]

I think it was more an example of the attitude he brings to work with him, really. It is one of the things used to illustrates his lack of respect, which he presumably doesn't leave at home. And then it does become a work-issue, especially if you're part of a team.

 

[entropie]

I think it was more an example of the attitude he brings to work with him, really. It is one of the things used to illustrates his lack of respect, which he presumably doesn't leave at home. And then it does become a work-issue, especially if you're part of a team.

Those are things that are discussable. But Ne-monsters analysis is highly subjective and that way you wont get a NT

 

[jenocyde]

I think it was more an example of the attitude he brings to work with him, really. It is one of the things used to illustrates his lack of respect, which he presumably doesn't leave at home. And then it does become a work-issue, especially if you're part of a team.

This is what I don't understand. Everyone brings their personality to work. I hate most people that I work with, but I do my job all the same.

Some of the things are unacceptable - the temper tantrums, the demeaning customers - but the rest really has no bearing, in my opinion.

And him thanking her for the advice seems like a play to manipulate her and get her to fight his battles for him. Sending the good cop in on your behalf... Watch your back, Monster. He doesn't seem genuine.

 

[thisGuy]

something someone said that might look good here

i think you are missing something. dont know what, but something.

what kind of relationship do you have with this man? describe it

for the stuff he says, you reallly have to know his motivations behind it... called his long term girlfriend of seven years "the woman who lives in my house"...i could see myself saying that. hell i'd prolly say that in front of her. but it doesn't mean anything...just a joke

THANKS ME FOR MY ADVICE.

you better be sure 110% sure that he is sincere. once your sure, check again

-can you fire him? he just might be playing it nice with you
-does not want anything to do with you except the bare minimum
-this could also be an example of what your ENTP girl said:

Oddly my best friend entp says when Fe kicks in she feels torn-she wants to be terse, bitter and cruel, but instead gets calmer and calmer and calmer, nicer and nicer on the surface. All the turmoil can't surface externally-mentally it is like Fe just will not let it out?? Her words not mine, so please forgive if it is inaccurate.

 

[Amargith]

This is what I don't understand. Everyone brings their personality to work. I hate most people that I work with, but I do my job all the same.

Some of the things are unacceptable - the temper tantrums, the demeaning customers - but the rest really has no bearing, in my opinion.

And him thanking her for the advice seems like a play to manipulate her and get her to fight his battles for him. Sending the good cop in on your behalf... Watch your back, Monster. He doesn't seem genuine.

Well, in this case I agree with her because of the situation. Far be it from me to force Fe down everyone's throat, but it seems that the situation has gotten to a level where if he wants his coworkers to actually appreciate his ideas and not sabotage him, he'll have to actually act cordially himself or he faces his ideas getting stuck, people not being willing to pick up his slack and clean up after him etc. That means the company suffers, but so does he, I'm guessing, as I'm sure he does wanna do his job well. Unfortunately, his job does include team-work, and although it might not be his fav part of it, it's something he cannot expect someone else to constantly micromanage for him...which it sounds Ne-monster is actually doing.

In this case, him putting up a facade (sincere or not sincere) will get him what he wants and benefit the company. Surely an NT can appreciate the efficiency that comes from doing small gestures that get the work done more smoothly and gets his ideas appreciated, even if this costs a tremendous amount of effort.


Ne-monster, I do agree however that he might be just trying to smooth talk you, though you did say he does implement some of the things you've said, and it would appear that he sees you as the only friend he has left there, so he might not be willing to blow up that bridge. I agree on not pushing him too often too far though as that's bound to blow up in your face then. Pace yourself...carefully. In general, people will react more willing when not being pressured, and I'd say that's doubly true for Ne-doms, and especially ENTPs, it would appear

 

[sculpting]

I tried to help you, I really did. I can't begin to describe how this post reeks of judgment. What does his sex life have to do with his job performance? Why is it even your business? For every relevant point, there are 2 more that just seem inherently personal... like you have a vendetta buried in there somewhere.

If he's that much of an asshole, fire him. There are plenty of bright people in this world.

It should have no relevence. It shouldnt be an issue. What he does offsite, no one cares about. We have several sales guys who likely spend thier free time doing other stuff. We dont hear about it. They dont bring it back to the job.

But in the past he has tangled this into his daily routine-it effects his ability to contribute. When I go to talk to someone about his project and the first thing they ask is "who is he fucking now?" or "why is he always hitting on me?" that is a problem. I cannot change the SJs in the world who are offended by this. I cant change that they make up about 55% of my company. For the SJs the lack of intergrity in personal life can lead to the assumption of a lack of intergrity in work life. Think of Bill clinton. This is not me-it is the world we live in.

About four months back I told him this. I said it would help if, regardless of what you do on your personal time, you dont hit on chicks at work. He got into a nasty scrape with HR and another entp girl over hitting on her. He has stopped.

After he hit on me I explained that I felt it was unethical to cheat on your girlfriend and maybe he should consider either not being in a committed relationship or being in an open relationship if you want to see other girls. Now this is totally private, totally intrusive, and totally judgemental on my part but he did hit on me, so I felt it was okay to let him know my thoughts on the issue. I did not mention it again. He calls his girlfriend his wife now when he is with work collegues. He stopped hitting on girls and bragging about how he can get awat with cheating.

Again it doesnt matter what he does when on his own time.

you are right about the firing. Many folks have brought this up. He does have some unique background traits that make him useful-specifically the combination of development experience and understanding of industry needs. If we lose him it would be a bit difficult to replace him given the area we are in-that is why he is still with us.

 

[entropie]

It's always the same, everywhere you look.

All dorks and dickheads happen to be geniuses.

See me for reference

 

[tinkerbell]

It's always the same, everywhere you look.

All dorks and dickheads happen to be geniuses.

See me for reference

LOL and y'a just keep humouring those who are tickin you off

 

[jenocyde]

, but so does he, I'm guessing, as I'm sure he does wanna do his job well.

probably not, at this point.

In this case, him putting up a facade (sincere or not sincere) will get him what he wants and benefit the company. Surely an NT can appreciate the efficiency that comes from doing small gestures that get the work done more smoothly and gets his ideas appreciated, even if this costs a tremendous amount of effort.

so fine, he does the gestures and everyone can sit back and smugly pat themselves on the back on how they changed him. And like Monster said, he could be the director by the end of the year, and then god help them all.

He calls his girlfriend his wife now when he is with work collegues. He stopped hitting on girls and bragging about how he can get awat with cheating.

...

you are right about the firing. Many folks have brought this up. He does have some unique background traits that make him useful-specifically the combination of development experience and understanding of industry needs. If we lose him it would be a bit difficult to replace him given the area we are in-that is why he is still with us.

Please. No one is irreplaceable.

 

[sculpting]

i think you are missing something. dont know what, but something.

what kind of relationship do you have with this man? describe it

for the stuff he says, you reallly have to know his motivations behind it... called his long term girlfriend of seven years "the woman who lives in my house"...i could see myself saying that. hell i'd prolly say that in front of her. but it doesn't mean anything...just a joke

you better be sure 110% sure that he is sincere. once your sure, check again

-can you fire him? he just might be playing it nice with you
-does not want anything to do with you except the bare minimum
-this could also be an example of what your ENTP girl said:

good call thatguy. you found the odd point.

No I cannot fire him-although i could have fed info at any point to the right people to get him fired, given the HR mess he narrowly escaped from. We are too small a company to risk lawsuits due to sexual harrassment, so HR has a very narrow window of tolerance there. If I did have a personal vendetta to destroy the guy, I could have done this. I have been angry at him a few times. He has been a douche.

the girlfriend comment was not made in front of me-it was made in front of several groups at several different times-not in a pleasent joking way.

I dont know why or what I did, but he listens to me when he will not listen to other people. I declined his advances, I directly confront him on his unethical behavior, I try and support his projects-his ideas. I have shunned him for months at a time-and he always returns and is kind to me-far more kind than he is to anyone else. I dont know why. I can make guesses.

 

[sculpting]

probably not, at this point.

so fine, he does the gestures and everyone can sit back and smugly pat themselves on the back on how they changed him. And like Monster said, he could be the director by the end of the year, and then god help them all.

Please. No one is irreplaceable.

I need his brain and input for another six months to complete the project. As for director, he would be a scientific director and not lead people-just develop ideas.

It can be hard to find good talent especially given the size of company we are and industry we are in. Amar is right on about the facade. It will do from a functional perspective, as long as it allows his contribution at work to continue.

 

[Amargith]

probably not, at this point.


so fine, he does the gestures and everyone can sit back and smugly pat themselves on the back on how they changed him. And like Monster said, he could be the director by the end of the year, and then god help them all.

Agreed, god help em all. But I wasn't suggesting him to change who he was. I was suggesting he would play the ENTP game of social politics. I agree that in his current state, he'll resent people for having to play this game, but if someone were to be able to show him how to do it without having to sacrifice who he is and have him notice the difference it could make, the benefit of having a team back you instead of working against you...maybe I'm optimistic by nature, but I think that might just work to redirect his energy from resentment to productivity.

I'm not suggesting manipulation, nor everyone being smug about him becoming a meek little puppy. Let's face it, hell will freeze over first. But I am suggesting that maybe someone can show him how to work within the system put upon you in the most creative and productive way without having to sacrifice who you are.

Edit: I never thought I'd hear myself advocate insincerity

 

[sculpting]

Agreed, god help em all. But I wasn't suggesting him to change who he was. I was suggesting he would play the ENTP game of social politics. I agree that in his current state, he'll resent people for having to play this game, but if someone were to be able to show him how to do it without having to sacrifice who he is and have him notice the difference it could make, the benefit of having a team back you instead of working against you...maybe I'm optimistic by nature, but I think that might just work to redirect his energy from resentment to productivity.

I'm not suggesting manipulation, nor everyone being smug about him becoming a meek little puppy. Let's face it, hell will freeze over first. But I am suggesting that maybe someone can show him how to work within the system put upon you in the most creative and productive way without having to sacrifice who you are.

yes. this.

 

[jenocyde]

...maybe I'm optimistic by nature, but I think that might just work to redirect his energy from resentment to productivity.

Yes, perhaps a little optimistic because it was my understanding that he is in fact productive, just not polite.

Edit: I never thought I'd hear myself advocate insincerity

hahahaha!!!! too cute.

yes. this.

Ok, I've (we've) said enough. You are going to do what you want anyway, so there is no point for me to continue. Good luck and let us know how it goes!!!

 

[thisGuy]

good call thatguy. you found the odd point.
.

 

[sculpting]

Yes, perhaps a little optimistic because it was my understanding that he is in fact productive, just not polite.

Ok, I've (we've) said enough. You are going to do what you want anyway, so there is no point for me to continue. Good luck and let us know how it goes!!!

there lies the problem-he actually isnt very productive, as nobody will work with him.

I shall forge ahead and again thanks for the lively discussion and commentary, as you guys teach me everytime we talk.

unless you are thatthereguy over yonder. see what happens when you mix pronouns up?

 

[entropie]

if you come up with a solution tho and a better understanding of entps, I'ld be intrested too, cause I lack that aswell.

 

[LostInNerSpace]

Narcissitic Personality Disorder.

Nope. Ego defense mechanism. I wonder what could possibly cause a person to get defensive in such a manner.

Our company didnt crush, him, god knows what caused him to be this way.

In that light I rate it five stars.

 

[Qre:us]

He does this a little to me, but far, far more to others.
So questions:

1) Does this sound familiar?
2) how can we get him to relax the defensive barrier once built?
3) How can we avoid provoking the defensive response?
4) Can he be taught alternate ways of responding, that are less destructive to teamwork and communication?

1) I can be very stubborn when I feel I've been wronged. I will, in my head, go through the 'fuck them' script and mentally discard them from my life, only to have them reach out, we talk it out, and all is forgotten. I don't hold grudges unless you have wronged a dear loved one, or tried to manipulate/use me. Then, I'm focusing on setting up the steps to best deliver my 'poetic justice' to said person.

2)-3) IGNORE! Cut off the very context that allows him the reaction of shunning in the first place. He knows his position within the company, and the asset that he is, if he is an unhealthy ENTP, he is getting off on seeing so many people get their panties in a knot through his assholish behaviour. It feeds into his ego that he's causing such a domino effect. Stop feeding the beast.

Give the most minimal feedback to him and his ideas when presented in such a deliberately rude manner. And, give positive reinforcement once after a few of such 'misses', he starts warming up (i.e. appealing to their logic, in a way that feeds their ego/affirmation of their ideas). Do not try to tell him why being polite, etc., will work in his favour. The very act of telling him, will make his unhealthy self rebel. Let him 'find out' for himself (and guide that process). Also, being polite as a means to an end is more (than likely) the ENTP's (unhealthy) cup of tea, hence, only end result consequences will work.

Finally, if he's a true ENTP, he will need that external feedback, things to bounce ideas off of, direct you OWN behaviour so that you engage that Ne of his ONLY when he's not a prick, otherwise, offer him silence. Take his idea with barely a nod, and just implement, no other positive reinforcement (it will make him realize the parallel of why when he receives a work from another, without acknowledging their effort, may seem harsh).

I.e., allow him to modify his own behaviour (be a guide only as far as you modifying your own behaviour accordingly to allow him a clear cut negative verses positive reinforcement), do not put your hand in the lion's den, you will come away more harshly bitten, in your aims to soothe and pet, than you went in.

4) Get the team to follow through not appeasing him. When his feedback loop is depleted and he associates that as a consequence of his own decorum/behaviour (repeated trials giving same results - reliability testing), he will change his ways, or leave. Either way, it's not going to do any good trying to get an unhealthy ENTP balanced through others intervening, we're fiercely independent, and we smell 'manipulation' like a lion smells blood. It will not end well.

Control your own feedback you give him in the direction that you want the change. I know being Ne+Fi, it's sometimes hard not to intervene in making someone better their inter-personal relationships for the greater good of all, but, cut yourself and your own motivations out of it. You will be much more successful in helping him. Otherwise, he will quickly tire of your 'giving good advice' ways.