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Thread: The ENTP shrug?

  1. #81
    Mr. Blue Array entropie's Avatar
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    Apr 2008
    3w2 so


    Man thats a lot. I'ld have answered all 4 questions with beer! But that's even better, tho I admit I havent read it :/

    Want a beer too ?
    Johari / Nohari

    "How dreadful!" cried Lord Henry. "I can stand brute force, but brute reason is quite unbearable. There is something unfair about its use. It is hitting below the intellect."
    ~ Oscar Wilde - The picture of Dorian Gray

  2. #82
    Interspecial Interpreter Array Amargith's Avatar
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    Nov 2008
    4dw sx/so
    IEx None


    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    1) I can be very stubborn when I feel I've been wronged. I will, in my head, go through the 'fuck them' script and mentally discard them from my life, only to have them reach out, we talk it out, and all is forgotten. I don't hold grudges unless you have wronged a dear loved one, or tried to manipulate/use me. Then, I'm focusing on setting up the steps to best deliver my 'poetic justice' to said person.

    2)-3) IGNORE! Cut off the very context that allows him the reaction of shunning in the first place. He knows his position within the company, and the asset that he is, if he is an unhealthy ENTP, he is getting off on seeing so many people get their panties in a knot through his assholish behaviour. It feeds into his ego that he's causing such a domino effect. Stop feeding the beast.

    Give the most minimal feedback to him and his ideas when presented in such a deliberately rude manner. And, give positive reinforcement once after a few of such 'misses', he starts warming up (i.e. appealing to their logic, in a way that feeds their ego/affirmation of their ideas). Do not try to tell him why being polite, etc., will work in his favour. The very act of telling him, will make his unhealthy self rebel. Let him 'find out' for himself (and guide that process). Also, being polite as a means to an end is more (than likely) the ENTP's (unhealthy) cup of tea, hence, only end result consequences will work.

    Finally, if he's a true ENTP, he will need that external feedback, things to bounce ideas off of, direct you OWN behaviour so that you engage that Ne of his ONLY when he's not a prick, otherwise, offer him silence. Take his idea with barely a nod, and just implement, no other positive reinforcement (it will make him realize the parallel of why when he receives a work from another, without acknowledging their effort, may seem harsh).

    I.e., allow him to modify his own behaviour (be a guide only as far as you modifying your own behaviour accordingly to allow him a clear cut negative verses positive reinforcement), do not put your hand in the lion's den, you will come away more harshly bitten, in your aims to soothe and pet, than you went in.

    4) Get the team to follow through not appeasing him. When his feedback loop is depleted and he associates that as a consequence of his own decorum/behaviour (repeated trials giving same results - reliability testing), he will change his ways, or leave. Either way, it's not going to do any good trying to get an unhealthy ENTP balanced through others intervening, we're fiercely independent, and we smell 'manipulation' like a lion smells blood. It will not end well.

    Control your own feedback you give him in the direction that you want the change. I know being Ne+Fi, it's sometimes hard not to intervene in making someone better their inter-personal relationships for the greater good of all, but, cut yourself and your own motivations out of it. You will be much more successful in helping him. Otherwise, he will quickly tire of your 'giving good advice' ways.

    a) Absolutely loved your post

    b) This is...creepy. You could find this kind of text ( in some places verbatum) in my animal behavioral therapy course...I'm NOT kidding. It's..utterly surreal

    Q, you rock and thank you for this

  3. #83
    Is Willard in Footloose!! Array CJ99's Avatar
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    Jan 2009


    Stop trying to help him.

    Tell him what you want done. When, where, How and why!

    And make sure you say the why its the part that will motivate him if hes knows the logic behind it.
    "I'd never die for my beliefs, I might be wrong"

    "Is it not enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe there are fairys at the bottom of it too"

    "Intelligence is being able to hold too opposing views in the mind at the one time without going crazy" - Now all I need to figure out is if I'm intelligent or crazy!

  4. #84
    RETIRED Array CzeCze's Avatar
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    Sep 2007


    Quote Originally Posted by tinkerbell View Post
    You're trying to turn someone into a performing monkey... respect his differences.
    Even if he doesn't respect others differences? Even if he's causing huge problems for himself as well as others at work with unprofessional behavior and personal beef?

    It's one thing to give people room and support to do well as themselves within an organization (whether it's school, work, volunteer groups) but nobody is so special they get carte blanche to be toxic and just straight up assholes.

    Quote Originally Posted by thisGuy View Post
    i think you are missing something. dont know what, but something.


    you better be sure 110% sure that he is sincere. once your sure, check again
    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    And him thanking her for the advice seems like a play to manipulate her and get her to fight his battles for him. Sending the good cop in on your behalf... Watch your back, Monster. He doesn't seem genuine.

    Yeah, make sure in your attempts to save a sinking ship you aren't getting played, you're so focused on how to turn this guy around that you can easily miss the bigger picture (ironic?)

    Ne-Monster, I'm very interested to hear how this all turns out. And you are one patient woman! Damn. And I concur - no one is irreplaceable.

    I wrote this long response but realized Qr:us summed it up well. Don't reward bad behavior.

    You don't need to know his type to get that he is very well aware of how "valuable" he is. We've all encountered people acting out - they will continue to act out until they get checked. Until people learn there are real negative and irreparable consequences to their actions, you give them no reason to change. And even then. Some people are just self/destructive and you can't help or fix those that don't want it.
    “If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.” ― Oscar Wilde

    "I'm outtie 5000" ― Romulux


  5. #85
    Once Was Array Synarch's Avatar
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    Oct 2008


    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    Don't even try to tell them what to do. It doesn't work, even if you are trying to tell them what to do because if they don't do it, they will suffer consequences. They would rather suffer the consequences than feel like they are being bossed.
    I used to be like this, but sometimes I now go along with people just to fuck with their heads. I hate being predictable and just refusing to do what you're told to do is predictable. So, sometimes I decline easy requests and other times I fulfill difficult requests. Always keep them guessing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    See how they get riled at even the prospect of one of their kind being told what to do? :-D

    I think you mess with their intuition when you try to control them, and without it, they are destabilized.
    Interesting theory. It's more that it forces our decision-making as to how to respond to overt control and I hate making decisions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    He needs a secretary.
    Man, I would give my left arm for a full time secretary. Think of all the things I could get done.
    "Create like a god, command like a king, work like a slave."

  6. #86


    thanks all for the feedback and advice. You guys are totally right on this one.

    I emailed him and explained that a friend told me I was being rude and I would no longer offer him advice with respect to others and his interactions, since he likely found that to be intrusive, however I was certain the projects would move forward successfully.

    I am going to withdraw and cut as many ties as possible to these projects. I dont have time to deal with people like him. There are too many folks I work with who are honest, rational, work very hard and have families to care for at home, for me to waste time dealing with a person who cant cope with the simpliest bits of feedback.

    I am sure his work will proceed nicely and be a success. He does have quite a track record of success...

  7. #87
    half mystic, half skeksis Array jenocyde's Avatar
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    Jan 2009


    Take care of yourself first, Monster.

  8. #88
    Senior Member Array tinkerbell's Avatar
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    Aug 2008


    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post
    Even if he doesn't respect others differences? Even if he's causing huge problems for himself as well as others at work with unprofessional behavior and personal beef?
    No get a grip, what we've been hearing is a very thinly vield monalogue of someone who is trying to force their way onto someone else. Which is funnier still because what has been reported as his response - sounds as if it might be patronising her (which is piss funny if it is because shes not joined those up). It's the whole "I'll humour you so you will just go away".

    This guy is actually doing his job - or he would be fired. He sounds good and frustrated with a bunch of people who are less creative than he is. Is he arrogant/annoying yes - but so are many people in big business.

    If you actually read what has been said by Ne - there is a thin value of "I'm a do-gooder, and I love ENTP's which gives me justification for my actions". Most of all she has appointed herself some sort of self appointed therapist - which is just a wee bit pathetic - the whole behavioural modification. She's not his boss, she is just opinionated product manager and making a right pigs ear of it.

    It's taken her a long while on this thread to actually consider that she may not be doing the right thing depsite a variety of people saying quite specifically (and in my case quite forcably), she was barking up the wrong tree - sometimes NF's just don't want to hear their course of non stoppable action aint the way to go.

    Loved the whole rant about Narcassisim - which I beleive is largely the absence of empahty... funny how much of the thread doesn't seem to have come from his perspective and is just a dress up pygmalion project.

    If he is a pain in the ass, deal with it, he is doing his job, even if he is annoying, it's a small company, to be honest he sounds like areally valuable player - given that he seems to should a creative burden larger than other peoples - respect what he does and appreciate that he is human and flawed.

    F-type do going has it's place but understand doing good looks different for different types.

  9. #89


    Quote Originally Posted by Synarch View Post
    I used to be like this, but sometimes I now go along with people just to fuck with their heads. I hate being predictable and just refusing to do what you're told to do is predictable. So, sometimes I decline easy requests and other times I fulfill difficult requests. Always keep them guessing. .
    So I am going to pick a tiny bit here. Not at you Synarch as I seem to recall you work independently and you seem like a really cool guy, but the comment above is a useful place to bounce off of-again please dont be offended personally, as you seem cool and nothing like my three entps who are unhealthy.

    A project starts in a feasibility stage with about ten folks on the team. We spend six months here working as a team but with the technical leads-the entps in this case, having massive freedom and minimally tapping into other folks for resources.

    We then move into development where the project team expands to 100 to 150 folks in about six departments. These folks are spending upwards of 80% of their day following the direction of project managers and the project goals established by the technical leads-the entps. The goal is to take the feasibility results and translate into a product we can sell. Development can last upwards of one to three years depending upon the complexity of the project. The last portion of this is extensive validation and testing of the product to make sure it meets all the requirements and can perform as intended.

    We then have to transfer the developed design into the manufacturing area, and prove we can make it reporducibly.

    Now imagine throughout this three year process if folks are doing what you described above-playing games or as many of the other posts indicated, rebelling just becasue they dont like being told what to do. Imagine if you have five percent of your group doing this...twenty percent...thirty percent....

    We are likely close to 15% I would guess between the games the unhealthy entps play and the the passive agressive behaviors the ISTJs can exhibit.

    This kills me. The reason is that while I typically lead with NeTeFi, Ne gives vision. I can NeTe "see" the delays being added all across schedules and timelines, and what extra work that will mean my folks at the bottom will end up having to do.

    I can NeFi "feel" the stress, worries, anxiety, misery, loss of morale, and lack of incentive to keep working that will ripple across the whole company. I can "feel" how miserable they will be, how they will spend late nights and weekends working to catch up and not spend time with thier families, how they will hate to come to work everyday, and how the useful folks will leave.

    So sort of like the butterfly/hurricane effect-what starts as one person not wanting to be told what to do, when compounded, can become a massive drain on an entire organization.

    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    Take care of yourself first, Monster.
    you were right. why did I doubt you?

  10. #90
    Senior Member Array LostInNerSpace's Avatar
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    Jan 2008


    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post
    Even if he doesn't respect others differences? Even if he's causing huge problems for himself as well as others at work with unprofessional behavior and personal beef?
    No personal beefs here. See --><-- happy!! Even happier after coffee and cinnamon crunch bagel.

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