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Thread: The ENTP shrug?

  1. #101
    Senior Member tinkerbell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post


    True, this account, just like every other account on TypeC is merely a story filtered through another person, who isn't a trained mental health (this includes your stories). So you can take it or leave it for what you will.
    Ah thats kind of what I am getting too - a filtered story which has a gross biase on it, that isn't too well hidden (& the veil is kinda thin).

    Your assumption about my training isn't right, I'm a qualified mental health practitioner, but haven't worked in the field for a good few years.

    NDP - is a fairly full on condition and shouldn't be used to lable merely bad behaviour, it's a clinical dianosis. Like most mental health dissorders can be self diagnosed/pushed onto someone erroniously.... Depression, real depression is a clinical illeness, not simply feeling blue one day.

    Just because someone has a grossly differnet style to others, is really annoying and up his own backside - doesn't not a mental helath condition make.

    and of course I take thing or leave them

    PS: I do think that doing some ham cognative behavioural therapy, when it has neither been prescribed or asked for is deeply manipulative and morally iffy. It fills some savour complex/super hero. The most appropriate in a turel mixed organisation is to find ways to make low % MBTI types thrive in their work. He is adding a lot of value - he sound frustrated (probably dominance of SJ/non creative/talented).... stand in his shoes - what doe the world look like...

  2. #102
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tinkerbell View Post
    if they are over 40 they are in a different phase of their career. Roughly speaking earlier career is all about building technical skills, earning trust and being seen to be compotent.

    Middle bit typcally is manging teams and getting the best out of them.

    Latter career in a corporate environment is about playing a higher level of policts. which has different credibility stakes.

    yes there are politics at all levels but it comes all consuming at board level.
    Some very interesting discussion could made on this subject. A lot of it boils down to Te/Fe differences in style. Part of the reason I get respect is that I am way too direct. Mostly I am quiet and just work. However when an issue needs to be addressed, I end up hacking through organizational layers with a machete to make sure the messege is clear. I become a Te tyrant, until the right people make the right choices, then I hide in my cave again. I do it rarely, but am always right, so I get away with it. My NTJ leaders and even the STJs greatly appreciate it. My ESTP VP boss says I would knock on Obama's door if needed-not sure if that is a compliment or not.

    We recently added an ENTP and three ENFPs to our upper executive ranks so it shold be a fun show to watch.

    Quote Originally Posted by Katsuni View Post
    AHA so I'm not the only one who just shrugs when I get pissy >.>;;
    You comments are awesome and much valued. I have to spend some time pouring over them but thanks much for taking the time to write them down. Likelt the most valuable part of the whole typology thing is understanding what you are misunderstanding. What did the other person-this ENTP-really mean and how are you misunderstanding it through your own perceptions.

    Quote Originally Posted by tinkerbell View Post
    Ah thats kind of what I am getting too - a filtered story which has a gross biase on it, that isn't too well hidden (& the veil is kinda thin).

    Your assumption about my training isn't right, I'm a qualified mental health practitioner, but haven't worked in the field for a good few years.

    NDP - is a fairly full on condition and shouldn't be used to lable merely bad behaviour, it's a clinical dianosis. Like most mental health dissorders can be self diagnosed/pushed onto someone erroniously.... Depression, real depression is a clinical illeness, not simply feeling blue one day.

    Just because someone has a grossly differnet style to others, is really annoying and up his own backside - doesn't not a mental helath condition make.

    and of course I take thing or leave them

    PS: I do think that doing some ham cognative behavioural therapy, when it has neither been prescribed or asked for is deeply manipulative and morally iffy. It fills some savour complex/super hero. The most appropriate in a turel mixed organisation is to find ways to make low % MBTI types thrive in their work. He is adding a lot of value - he sound frustrated (probably dominance of SJ/non creative/talented).... stand in his shoes - what doe the world look like...

    Hehe, tell me more about my bias-we can see how close or far off you are

    I'd love to chat more about NPD with you-not on this thread as it will drag it down to the shits-it and the other personality disorders are very interesting to me. NPD and BPD in particular. Let's just call him an exceptionally poorly performing entp. By "poorly performing" lets define as:

    1) Not meeting his own personal career goals over a 20 year work history-he wants to be CSO
    2) Not having his ideas taken seriously-which seems to be his goal
    3) Everyone he interacts with wants to stab him in the eyes (hard to quantify that last one)

    Let me emphasize 9/9 has utter freedom 95% of the time as he in on the road with customers. He actually rarely interacts with folks internal-5% of the time. In that 5% he has made them-including my other normal entps- despise him. He actally gets free rein to do whatever the hell he please most of the time-so no real limits of his schedule, creativity, lifestyle or anything else.

    However in this position he is actually not adding much value at all to the organization. Meh, maybe a bit of sales here and there, but really just drops in the bucket. It will also not lead him where he wants to be careerwise. Also only somewhat productive here due to pissing off customers and partners.

    However what he really wants-and where he could truly add value-is for his ideas to be taken, brought internal and made into new products. He wants to see his ideas become reality and be respected for them. This inadvertantly puts him into the career path he wants. Earlier I noted you said this was not what he cared about-instead he wanted a free work enviornment. It seemed REALLY odd, as their ideas are all he or my other ENTPs seem to care about???? Cant see in you guys brains though, so I have to go by his words. Would love commentary here....

    THIS-having his ideas respected-not my suggestions, is what seems to be improving his interactions. I think my suggestions are just tools he chunks in a box and pulls them out as tools as needed-when he feels confident??? Hell I dunno... No illusions of changing his core-that isnt the goal.

    Fi is kind of a funny thing. It seeks to minimize unhappiness-not group harmony like Fe but the real deal-each person's internal unhappiness. So my goal is not save this particular guy, but to minimize the unhappiness of my team first and foremost. What benefits them the most. The first thing you evaluate in a team is what each person wants to gain from being on the team-What do they want? They get what they want, they buy in and work hard, we make progress, we minimize unhappiness. (My entps endlessly is confused-she makes them look happy-Fe, I actually make them happy-Fi. We complemet well.)

    My ESTPs want money, a window office, and social recognition. My INTPs seem to want to be left alone, but want the things they build to be sound and robust, if they are going to bother building them. My ISTJs typically want respect, some recoignition, and want reliable, robust, routine assignments. I personally want them to be all to be the least miserable possible, to make Fi shut the fuck up so I dont feel thier reflected pain. This ENTP wants his ideas taken seriously-he is on my team-ths how can I do that? It may mean confrontation and listening to feedback on his part.

    PS=Tried to get off his project. No go as nobody else will work with him. Was again on "shrug" bt I emailed him "dear Jesus (he is an arrogant motherfucker and likes it when people tell him so), When I have PMS, I find chocolates and Red wine work. You might try that." Then I asked him for his opinion/advice regarding a highly technical area he has info on. I am back on "nonshrug" for now...

  3. #103
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katsuni View Post
    AHA ... normal.
    I liked what you said here. My thoughts -

    You can't fix an ENTP's problems, so don't even try. He or she has to do it on their own, since having something be fixed without understanding the problem in the first place isn't really fixing it at all, just an application of palliative care. What you can do is offer up information - that is, tools to help that person figure out what's really going on. If you do mention something that has been completely overlooked, it'll usually be responded to well. No value judgments, however.

  4. #104
    More human than human MetalWounds's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    I liked what you said here. My thoughts -

    You can't fix an ENTP's problems, so don't even try. He or she has to do it on their own, since having something be fixed without understanding the problem in the first place isn't really fixing it at all, just an application of palliative care. What you can do is offer up information - that is, tools to help that person figure out what's really going on. If you do mention something that has been completely overlooked, it'll usually be responded to well. No value judgments, however.
    I'd think it more likely that if you fixed a problem or came up with a solution that an ENTP couldn't, they'd be thrilled. Ti would crave to know how you did it, the method you used. That you used a different approach to a problem that they hadn't thought of would open up a new world of information. They'd want to know your approach, the thought processes that make up your method, the methods to those methods, how they could apply them to other problems. Ne in overdrive. Ne+Ti in any order craves information, not personally solving a problem. That seems more Ni-Te based to me.
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  5. #105
    Priestess Of Syrinx Katsuni's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MetalWounds View Post
    I'd think it more likely that if you fixed a problem or came up with a solution that an ENTP couldn't, they'd be thrilled. Ti would crave to know how you did it, the method you used. That you used a different approach to a problem that they hadn't thought of would open up a new world of information. They'd want to know your approach, the thought processes that make up your method, the methods to those methods, how they could apply them to other problems. Ne in overdrive. Ne+Ti in any order craves information, not personally solving a problem. That seems more Ni-Te based to me.
    This depends; often they will be quite pleased as it's something new to learn, and will under MOST circumstances just go "oh well now that I know that, I just thought of a few improvements", however, it depends almost entirely upon how it's presented and in the context of the situation. There's a great sense of personal pride at work in many cases, when that pride feels directly attacked, rubbing it in doesn't help.

    Remember that a personality type is a GUIDE as a 'general rule of thumb' for how they behave under 'normal' circumstances. As soon as yeu change the circumstances to be hostile, the reactions will vary greatly from the 'norm' that they're used to, often reversing completely when backed into a corner.

    In this case, we're talking about someone who feels that they aren't providing enough, and probably feels slightly inferior over one of their chosen specialties, if this's the case, they won't be nearly as open to new ideas as they usually would be. They'll be defensive and trying to save any shred of dignity they can. That or they'll just sink farther and it'll get even worse as they slide down towards a minor depression. Once they feel they're making a valuable addition again, then they stop caring about being 'right' so much, as being able to just further the project, whotever it is, and having some valuable input. Yeu just HAVE to make sure that they're not in a mindset at the time that they view it as "Oh joy, another thing I screwed up and more proof I'm useless", as soon as they're out of that though they'll be fine and act like normal.

  6. #106
    More human than human MetalWounds's Avatar
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    ^ Can't argue that, excellent points.

    ENTPs are rise to the challenge people.

    If you get into the "I'm not going to give your any responsibility or challenge you because you're not worth it" mindset, depending on social maturity, you're going to find a very, very stubborn adversary.
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  7. #107
    Senior Member tinkerbell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ne-Monster View Post

    1) Not meeting his own personal career goals over a 20 year work history-he wants to be CSO
    2) Not having his ideas taken seriously-which seems to be his goal
    3) Everyone he interacts with wants to stab him in the eyes (hard to quantify that last one)
    Ok point 1 - the majority of 40- somthing exects have to come to terms with them having progressed as far as they are going to go. I just finished working in an organisation of 91,000 people of which c.40 were board level and 4 were exec board. This means that a massive proportion of people are NEVER going to get to the actual top.

    FYI in most boards there are few NF's (have a think on that), and start thinking what do you need to do to get from VP to board level, and it may help you understand some of the "other" eNTp you were concerned with. What do they need to communicate.

    2, - probably an issue, but I don't think your assesment is accurate. IF he was performing badly in he bosses eyes in terms of actual delivery - I'm pretty sure he would know about it. Many creative types are cluless in how to communicate their ideas... see the structuring in an Ad agency - the vast majority of staff are not creatives, they are account managers who are paid to sell in the creative. If he is struggling to communicate the essence of his ideas - ie his audience internally is switched off, then eventually he will pack his bags and move. From this sound of you it would be good for the businesses.

    3) - if this didn't imact point 2, the answer would be SO what, he only deals with Others 5% of the time. Many senior managers are ass holes, there is not something you can do about it.

    The old adage, you can't change other people but you can change your own reactions to them, thoughts and feelings about them.

    The issue for you is that you've come onto this thread with particulalrly strong view/planned action. It took a bunch of ENTPs to say reel your head in and stop trying to fix this guy... tell him what you want, tell him sepecifically and he will sort his own shit out.

    I have a feeling reading between the lines that this guy is in real terms more senior to you. If he is, you might want to sit a while and figure out why he is.

    Oh and on point 2 - SJ's typically don't get it... I worked for a company which was SJ leadned and they truly struggled with very conceptual ideas. They just didn't get what can be done, and more importantly what can't be done. It was like dealing with first year brand managers with director level powers.. Think about Ad agency structures... I beleive this guy is a bit of a muppet, but he does ad value and the organisation is to an extent dependant on him - find an organisational solution not a human interaction - he will eventually get stubborn and will not budge. I do think there is a lot more going on for HIM than you are seeing, and I DO beleive that he may be less of the protagonist than he appears to be

    PS you are rated for being direct by people who are not being direct - why aren't thiney being direct themselves?

    Don't shoot the messenger - make someone else the messenger and shoot them. You are putting yourself in a potnetially difficult possitioning later in your career. The Corporate Truth Teller are often the first one to be axed..... youd be surprised how many board member never challenge.

    That said I'm sure your NF is great a dealing with people, but be careful of the invisable politics that you are stomping on in a slightly insensitive way....

  8. #108
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    I'd say you don't need to look any further than your 'steady stream of negative feedback'. There's your answer. ENTP's can be pretty dependent on others' belief in them to believe in themselves, sometimes. If you're constantly telling him he's shit, then he'll either start to believe it and give up trying, or he'll just block you out, figuring you're impossible to please. From the OP, I find it difficult to know what you really actually want and expect from him. If he feels similarly, then you could do worse than just spell out in plain English what it is you want from him, along with some good feedback that explains why you believe you've reason to expect it.
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  9. #109
    Senior Member tinkerbell's Avatar
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    Sorry your perspective/lack of it is still bugging me.

    Einstein reckoned that if you look at the problem in the same way each time you will get the same solution.

    I appreciate you are "feeling" the probelm and being empathetic to collegues and your SJ workforce.

    You need to look at the problem as a chess game... he has been made by the masses to be the witch... burn him... The mass voice is often wrong, what was the tipping point between the collective consiousness beleiving the world was flat - into the world is round... there is a moment when the majority changed their opinion.

    Hence make him the victim and see what the world look like from his perspective (I think you were attempting to do so - but were too feeling based). Try thinking...

    Hypothetically
    1. He is a technical expert, his role is to develope a solution that works

    In my experience SJ's types typically are interested in their personal objectives and are looking to tick the progress box on thier business plans. They don't give a STUFF about the quality of the solution.

    Hence this guy probably needs to spend a huge amount of time defending the integrety of his solution (he is probably looking for it to be roubust and longer haul). He may be having language issues with non technical experts who actually don't have a CLUe what he is talking about.

    2. Frustration - maybe his career path, but more likely this crowed of SJ's (in my head they are nagging women) clucking around him asking really dim questions (NT's typically asses people worthiness to know - harsh I know but if they don't think you are smart enough they will dissmiss you).

    3. Technical problems with the solution - his mind is probably focused on improving the solution - this probably take up 90% of his mental energy...

    Now these are top of mind - thoughts based on what you wrote (his view of this)... now mentally make the list bigger encompasse all his problems.

    The thing with ass holes are. 1. they may just be ass holes but 2. they may be ass holes because they are beign victimised.

    > This guy sounds clever and annoying and has probably crunched a good few toes, but that doens't stop him being the victim of organisational bullying. The temptation for an NF is to side with the bigger voice and assume he is the cause of the problem, not just reacting to provocation. Don't just assume he is total guilty because he is annoying/playing up/an ass hole. Fairness is about being able to see what his issue are not just the issues he is causing.

    At a guess his focus (90% of it) is on the rational - get the best solution/the best prototype (it has to work/be viable) - the people well they aren't important.

    All the intertuptions to his thinking prevent him from doing his job - finding the best solution to fix the problem. He may resent the intellectual energy being dragged away from the focal point of his job... he wants to solve problems and these people keep demanding he does then gets in his way while he is doing it. (I know an INTP who is an engineer who moans about this ALL the time)

  10. #110
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katsuni View Post
    In this case, we're talking about someone who feels that they aren't providing enough, and probably feels slightly inferior over one of their chosen specialties, if this's the case, they won't be nearly as open to new ideas as they usually would be. They'll be defensive and trying to save any shred of dignity they can. That or they'll just sink farther and it'll get even worse as they slide down towards a minor depression. Once they feel they're making a valuable addition again, then they stop caring about being 'right' so much, as being able to just further the project, whotever it is, and having some valuable input. Yeu just HAVE to make sure that they're not in a mindset at the time that they view it as "Oh joy, another thing I screwed up and more proof I'm useless", as soon as they're out of that though they'll be fine and act like normal.
    this sounds very accurate. It's funny as his improvements have been noted by many folks across the company-not just me. He is acting more "normal" ie normal entp. Before the best way I could describe him was a really messed up defensive INTJ-a shadow INTJ perhaps, who would act out in a crazed Se hypermanic way when playing...

    For an ENFP you could pull them out of the "I suck" black hole via verbal affirmation that they are useful, emo valued and contributing. It seems like the only way to do that for an ENTP is via action-he has to contribute?

    Again thanks much.

    Also-bias: he is a close friend. I care much for him from a distance. The only way I can show I care is by helping his ideas become reality-even if that means I have to give him negative feedback at times to make that happen.

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