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[Jungian Cognitive Functions] Cognitive Functions

FlamingMask

New member
Joined
Jul 19, 2009
Messages
78
MBTI Type
INTp
One thing that's been bothering me is that most people's cognitive functions don't really seem to fit their Myers Briggs type. While you would expect the norm to be something close to the way they're listed, I usually see a hierarchy of someone who has taken the cognitive functions test that does not fit the profile.

For example, the list for an INTP would go:

Ti Ne Si Fe Te Ni Se Fi

but most INTPs have something like:

Ti Ne Te Si Ni Se Fe Fi

Why is that? Does the list of functions not really work? Does the test look only for preference and not ability, and if so, are they really that different? Am I just seeing a lot of outliers for some reason?
 

Totenkindly

@.~*virinaĉo*~.@
Joined
Apr 19, 2007
Messages
50,187
MBTI Type
BELF
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594
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
but most INTPs have something like:

Ti Ne Te Si Ni Se Fe Fi

I disagree already.

Most INTPs have sucky Te.
They don't get anything done; they just sit around and dabble in theoretical pursuits.

The three pairings I see more is:
Ti+Si
Ti+Ne (or even stronger Ne)
or Ti+Ni+Ne

(I think)

It's all just a theory. Deviations are the norm.

There's been discussing on i/e functions pairs -- i.e., can you develop either the I or E of the pair (e.g., Se vs Si) without developing the other to some degree?
 

avolkiteshvara

New member
Joined
Apr 27, 2009
Messages
893
MBTI Type
YaYa
Yeah INTP exhibit very little Te.

Ask the some type of analytical question. First thing they will do is stop all physical activity and "process" before answering. I've never really been able to think aloud.
 

Kra

Black Magic Buzzard
Joined
Jun 24, 2009
Messages
912
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
4w5
MBTI is not a perfect analysis, but more of a close estimation. A tool for self development if you will. Sometimes it seems people fit into it messily, or not at all.

I think we often forget that just because we prefer a certain set of functions, doesn't mean that the others are no longer there. We all have 8. And just like a muscle group, we're free to develop them as we see fit. I myself have an abnormal Ti according to the MBTI.


I'm starting to think of MBTI as just a preset group of examples for how certain cognitive functions work in relation to one another. It shows me what sort of behaviors I should focus on if I wish to further develop certain functions. That may be totally wrong, but I'm just pondering the idea currently.
 

The Decline

(☞゚∀゚)☞
Joined
Jun 3, 2009
Messages
780
MBTI Type
?
Enneagram
5w4
Yep, INTPs are really just that different. Or, MBTI types are really just that rough.
 

Costrin

rawr
Joined
Nov 1, 2008
Messages
2,320
MBTI Type
ENTP
Enneagram
5w4
For example, the list for an INTP would go:

Ti Ne Si Fe Te Ni Se Fi

Simple answer: whoever came up with that specific ordering is crazy. I don't know why it keeps being parroted around everywhere. I don't think it's even "official MBTI".
 

The Decline

(☞゚∀゚)☞
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Messages
780
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?
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5w4
Perhaps we should collate cognitive functions of averages of people reporting specific MBTI types, so we can get to the bottom of what's actually most likely.
 

Llewellyn

New member
Joined
Oct 30, 2008
Messages
330
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INtj
Enneagram
9w1
I have been thinking about this lately. Thanks for giving me an existing thread to answer.

My take now is that the conscious order, taking an INTP, is Ti - Ne - Si - Fe. That doesn't even mean how strong each one is, it tells which is used as dominant, secondary, tertiary and inferior. Since these four are conscious (to whatever degree), they are usually present in this order.

Now my theory is that the other four are unconscious (that doesn't mean they can't be experienced), and that they take random places, not in the least in the way they are experienced. Taking my own function order, this is the case. Their role is pretty inconceivable, they're in their own 'universe', having their own rules. One idea I have is that they occur in places within the conscious order to help that order, by forming sub-personalities, e.g. NeFi or NiTe, when considering my own function order. I'm explaining it shortly... It should probably develop more. Probably the four unconscious functions are also more easily to recognize in others (than in oneself).

Now that's for some (short) Ti theorizing...

Edit:
Ni > Te > Ti = Fi > Ne > Si = Fe > Se
Ti, Ne, (Fi, Ni, Te), Si, Fe, (Se)

Seeing some parallells in our orders...
 

Totenkindly

@.~*virinaĉo*~.@
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Simple answer: whoever came up with that specific ordering is crazy. I don't know why it keeps being parroted around everywhere. I don't think it's even "official MBTI".

No, they're not crazy. It's one of the "logical" progressions built off the primary+secondary combos that define each MBTI type.

(Ti+Ne for example is the same as saying INTP. Every "type" can be represented by a unique Primary+Sec pairing. Now, if you assume fourth position is the opposite of primary -- Fe -- then the logical function missing in that pattern is Si. It's natural to assume the second quattro is going to be the flip of the first quattro, although there are some OTHER sequences that fit a pattern as well.)

The thing is that theory isn't always reality.
What makes sense on paper doesn't necessarily reflect the truth.
 

redacted

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 28, 2007
Messages
4,223
The problem here is that Te and Ti (for example) are not really different functions. It's misleading to think of it that way. The best way I've thought of to conceptualize the system is that there are FOUR functions (Thinking, Feeling, Sensing, and Intuition) and an Introversion/Extroversion score for each one.

So someone with X amount of thinking would have Y Ti and (X-Y) Te. Any two INTPs could have different X and Y values, which would mean their 8 function order would look different. (Check out my type calculator for a visual if you want.)
 

Jaguar

Active member
Joined
May 5, 2007
Messages
20,647
The thing is that theory isn't always reality.
What makes sense on paper doesn't necessarily reflect the truth.

How refreshing to read a comment from someone who isn't an MBTI function parrot.
The squawking in this forum can be deafening, at times.
 

Athenian200

Protocol Droid
Joined
Jul 1, 2007
Messages
8,828
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
4w5
One thing that's been bothering me is that most people's cognitive functions don't really seem to fit their Myers Briggs type. While you would expect the norm to be something close to the way they're listed, I usually see a hierarchy of someone who has taken the cognitive functions test that does not fit the profile.

For example, the list for an INTP would go:

Ti Ne Si Fe Te Ni Se Fi

but most INTPs have something like:

Ti Ne Te Si Ni Se Fe Fi

Why is that? Does the list of functions not really work? Does the test look only for preference and not ability, and if so, are they really that different? Am I just seeing a lot of outliers for some reason?

The thing is, MBTI only tests for dichotomies normally, and often the actual function orders don't quite line up with what you'd theoretically expect. Usually the first two are on, but even that's not a given. The strongest Extraverted function (or Introverted function for an Extravert), should match the theoretical Auxiliary, though.

Now, let me give you a few examples to explain how typing works under odd circumstances:

Here's one possible functional order for an INFJ:

Ni > Ti > Fe > Ne=Si > Te=Se > Fi

Despite the fact that Fe is actually tertiary in strength, this person is still an INFJ because Fe is still their strongest Extraverted function, and Ti isn't too much of an anomaly considering it's Tertiary.

You could also have an INFJ with this order:

Ni > Ne > Fe > Fi > Ti=Te > Se=Si

Here's where the fun begins. I'm going to show you just how little it really takes to "change" someone's type.

Ni > Ti > Ne > Fe=Si > Se=Te > Fi

The above person would be an INTP, despite the strong Ni, because the strongest I/E pair is Ti/Ne.

And this is an ENFP:

Ni > Ne > Fi > Fe > Ti=Te > Se=Si

So the moral of the story? Type when messing with functions is determined by the strongest pair of I/E functions that fit together. The rest influences behavior but is discarded due to the limitations of the framework.

Of course, if you so choose, you can type yourself by dichotomies and forget functions if there's a real dissonance and you relate better to a type you don't have the functions for. It's all quite subjective and personal. This is why you shouldn't seriously question someone's type. It really doesn't make enough sense to be taken seriously.
 

NewEra

New member
Joined
Dec 21, 2008
Messages
3,104
MBTI Type
I
One thing that's been bothering me is that most people's cognitive functions don't really seem to fit their Myers Briggs type. While you would expect the norm to be something close to the way they're listed, I usually see a hierarchy of someone who has taken the cognitive functions test that does not fit the profile.

For example, the list for an INTP would go:

Ti Ne Si Fe Te Ni Se Fi

but most INTPs have something like:

Ti Ne Te Si Ni Se Fe Fi

I would not say that most INTP's have that function order. Each INTP is different, but are generally similar with the first two (Ti Ne). I don't know though, many people do not believe in the cognitive functions, and follow the MBTI instead.
 

StephMC

Controlled Mischief
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Mar 2, 2009
Messages
1,044
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ISTP
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9w8
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
So I haven't read everyone's reasons as to why this is, but they're probably all possible answers. I think the primary reason this happens is due to age. For instance, an ISTP is supposed to be Ti Se Ni Fe | Te Si Ne Fi... but mine is Ti Se Ni Te Si Ne Fe Fi

I'm convinced your shadow functions develop along with your corresponding primary function. So maybe when I was younger, I was Ti with a decently developed Te, and as I aged Se eventually pushed Te back, followed by Ni. I think a health 50+ year old person would have function orders closest to their personality type. Just my 2 cents.
 

FlamingMask

New member
Joined
Jul 19, 2009
Messages
78
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INTp
I disagree already.

Most INTPs have sucky Te.
They don't get anything done; they just sit around and dabble in theoretical pursuits.

It's all just a theory. Deviations are the norm.

Well that wasn't quite the point; it was probably just a poor example. My ordering for instance, which thus far I have neglected to post or put in my profile is

Ti > Ne > Ni > Te > Si = Se > Fi > Fe

The issue I was raising was that, as a better example, a couple of my functions are way out of line. The strongest example is Fe, which is normally the fourth function. Here it's the eighth - and although you could blame it on me just being weird :), I feel like I've seen many INTPs who have Fe much lower than the theory calls for. (Also I'm just focusing on INTPs since I am most familiar with those functions and can tell if they fit the theory at a glance. I have noticed it in other types as well.)

Perhaps we should collate cognitive functions of averages of people reporting specific MBTI types, so we can get to the bottom of what's actually most likely.

That's a solid but ambitious idea, and I wonder if people would use the theory differently if we could prove with a certain degree of confidence that it was inaccurate.

The problem here is that Te and Ti (for example) are not really different functions. It's misleading to think of it that way. The best way I've thought of to conceptualize the system is that there are FOUR functions (Thinking, Feeling, Sensing, and Intuition) and an Introversion/Extroversion score for each one.

That makes sense. Every straight-MBTI test I've taken appears to test for only the main function and not it's attitudinal bent, so people would be assigned a type through a simpler method.

How refreshing to read a comment from someone who isn't an MBTI function parrot.
The squawking in this forum can be deafening, at times.

Well some people like using theory to predict actions or analyze occurrences. If the problem is that the theory doesn't work, it can simply be changed until it can or thrown out.

The thing is, MBTI only tests for dichotomies normally, and often the actual function orders don't quite line up with what you'd theoretically expect. Usually the first two are on, but even that's not a given. The strongest Extraverted function (or Introverted function for an Extravert), should match the theoretical Auxiliary, though.

Now, let me give you a few examples to explain how typing works under odd circumstances:

[Insert insightful examples]

So the moral of the story? Type when messing with functions is determined by the strongest pair of I/E functions that fit together. The rest influences behavior but is discarded due to the limitations of the framework.

Of course, if you so choose, you can type yourself by dichotomies and forget functions if there's a real dissonance and you relate better to a type you don't have the functions for. It's all quite subjective and personal. This is why you shouldn't seriously question someone's type. It really doesn't make enough sense to be taken seriously.

Well most people who are assigned a type by the test are given the correct function pairing, meaning that testing for P vs. J really works in determining the attitude of your primary function pair.

It looks like most people feel the ordering is not really that strongly related to ability, especially with the latter four functions. (I am assuming the cognitive functions test that most people have taken does test for ability, since the test uses words like better and well when referring to your usage of the functions.)
 

Kalach

Filthy Apes!
Joined
Dec 3, 2008
Messages
4,310
MBTI Type
INTJ
Two functions, alike in orientation, inside someone's conscious head, where we lay this scene, inasmuch as they must have the age-old dislike of operating at the same time, there's no basic incapacity produced?

How do a bunch of i functions operate without the intercession of some e function? Surely if one if heavy on i functions, one is stuck inside oneself--and I don't mean one is an introvert, I mean one has nothing coming in. Likewise, a bunch of e functions doing anything without some i function inside? Heavy on the e, is one even a person, or just a environmental response mechanism?

If you've got weird function orders, do you want to keep them?

Or more importantly, if people say they have unusual function orders, why do you believe them?


I'm just curious because I find it really, really difficult to imagine why someone would want to avoid the simple idea that an e function paired with an i function represents balance in a good way.

By the bye, does everyone still want perception functions paired with judgment functions?


Ooo, conscious vs unconscious... can we really "want" a given function order, considering much of consciousness is unconscious? Well, if we can't, we aren't conscious at all, are we?


Thus, if you have weird function orders, it's your own fault.


I could be wrong. But why aren't you seeking "health"?
 

Jaguar

Active member
Joined
May 5, 2007
Messages
20,647
Well some people like using theory to predict actions or analyze occurrences. If the problem is that the theory doesn't work, it can simply be changed until it can or thrown out.

Thank you for stating something that is already widely known.
 

Valuable_Money

New member
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Jun 19, 2009
Messages
679
MBTI Type
ENTP
Enneagram
5w6
I usualy get pretty high Ni when I test my functions, but thats probably because to my knowledge the differences between Ne and Ni are poorly defined.
 
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