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  1. #11
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post

    The thing is that theory isn't always reality.
    What makes sense on paper doesn't necessarily reflect the truth.
    How refreshing to read a comment from someone who isn't an MBTI function parrot.
    The squawking in this forum can be deafening, at times.

  2. #12
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlamingMask View Post
    One thing that's been bothering me is that most people's cognitive functions don't really seem to fit their Myers Briggs type. While you would expect the norm to be something close to the way they're listed, I usually see a hierarchy of someone who has taken the cognitive functions test that does not fit the profile.

    For example, the list for an INTP would go:

    Ti Ne Si Fe Te Ni Se Fi

    but most INTPs have something like:

    Ti Ne Te Si Ni Se Fe Fi

    Why is that? Does the list of functions not really work? Does the test look only for preference and not ability, and if so, are they really that different? Am I just seeing a lot of outliers for some reason?
    The thing is, MBTI only tests for dichotomies normally, and often the actual function orders don't quite line up with what you'd theoretically expect. Usually the first two are on, but even that's not a given. The strongest Extraverted function (or Introverted function for an Extravert), should match the theoretical Auxiliary, though.

    Now, let me give you a few examples to explain how typing works under odd circumstances:

    Here's one possible functional order for an INFJ:

    Ni > Ti > Fe > Ne=Si > Te=Se > Fi

    Despite the fact that Fe is actually tertiary in strength, this person is still an INFJ because Fe is still their strongest Extraverted function, and Ti isn't too much of an anomaly considering it's Tertiary.

    You could also have an INFJ with this order:

    Ni > Ne > Fe > Fi > Ti=Te > Se=Si

    Here's where the fun begins. I'm going to show you just how little it really takes to "change" someone's type.

    Ni > Ti > Ne > Fe=Si > Se=Te > Fi

    The above person would be an INTP, despite the strong Ni, because the strongest I/E pair is Ti/Ne.

    And this is an ENFP:

    Ni > Ne > Fi > Fe > Ti=Te > Se=Si

    So the moral of the story? Type when messing with functions is determined by the strongest pair of I/E functions that fit together. The rest influences behavior but is discarded due to the limitations of the framework.

    Of course, if you so choose, you can type yourself by dichotomies and forget functions if there's a real dissonance and you relate better to a type you don't have the functions for. It's all quite subjective and personal. This is why you shouldn't seriously question someone's type. It really doesn't make enough sense to be taken seriously.

  3. #13
    Senior Member NewEra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlamingMask View Post
    One thing that's been bothering me is that most people's cognitive functions don't really seem to fit their Myers Briggs type. While you would expect the norm to be something close to the way they're listed, I usually see a hierarchy of someone who has taken the cognitive functions test that does not fit the profile.

    For example, the list for an INTP would go:

    Ti Ne Si Fe Te Ni Se Fi

    but most INTPs have something like:

    Ti Ne Te Si Ni Se Fe Fi
    I would not say that most INTP's have that function order. Each INTP is different, but are generally similar with the first two (Ti Ne). I don't know though, many people do not believe in the cognitive functions, and follow the MBTI instead.

  4. #14
    Controlled Mischief StephMC's Avatar
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    So I haven't read everyone's reasons as to why this is, but they're probably all possible answers. I think the primary reason this happens is due to age. For instance, an ISTP is supposed to be Ti Se Ni Fe | Te Si Ne Fi... but mine is Ti Se Ni Te Si Ne Fe Fi

    I'm convinced your shadow functions develop along with your corresponding primary function. So maybe when I was younger, I was Ti with a decently developed Te, and as I aged Se eventually pushed Te back, followed by Ni. I think a health 50+ year old person would have function orders closest to their personality type. Just my 2 cents.
    I have an inner monologue that sounds strikingly similar to something off Animal Planet.

  5. #15
    Member FlamingMask's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I disagree already.

    Most INTPs have sucky Te.
    They don't get anything done; they just sit around and dabble in theoretical pursuits.

    It's all just a theory. Deviations are the norm.
    Well that wasn't quite the point; it was probably just a poor example. My ordering for instance, which thus far I have neglected to post or put in my profile is

    Ti > Ne > Ni > Te > Si = Se > Fi > Fe

    The issue I was raising was that, as a better example, a couple of my functions are way out of line. The strongest example is Fe, which is normally the fourth function. Here it's the eighth - and although you could blame it on me just being weird , I feel like I've seen many INTPs who have Fe much lower than the theory calls for. (Also I'm just focusing on INTPs since I am most familiar with those functions and can tell if they fit the theory at a glance. I have noticed it in other types as well.)

    Quote Originally Posted by The Decline View Post
    Perhaps we should collate cognitive functions of averages of people reporting specific MBTI types, so we can get to the bottom of what's actually most likely.
    That's a solid but ambitious idea, and I wonder if people would use the theory differently if we could prove with a certain degree of confidence that it was inaccurate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    The problem here is that Te and Ti (for example) are not really different functions. It's misleading to think of it that way. The best way I've thought of to conceptualize the system is that there are FOUR functions (Thinking, Feeling, Sensing, and Intuition) and an Introversion/Extroversion score for each one.
    That makes sense. Every straight-MBTI test I've taken appears to test for only the main function and not it's attitudinal bent, so people would be assigned a type through a simpler method.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    How refreshing to read a comment from someone who isn't an MBTI function parrot.
    The squawking in this forum can be deafening, at times.
    Well some people like using theory to predict actions or analyze occurrences. If the problem is that the theory doesn't work, it can simply be changed until it can or thrown out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    The thing is, MBTI only tests for dichotomies normally, and often the actual function orders don't quite line up with what you'd theoretically expect. Usually the first two are on, but even that's not a given. The strongest Extraverted function (or Introverted function for an Extravert), should match the theoretical Auxiliary, though.

    Now, let me give you a few examples to explain how typing works under odd circumstances:

    [Insert insightful examples]

    So the moral of the story? Type when messing with functions is determined by the strongest pair of I/E functions that fit together. The rest influences behavior but is discarded due to the limitations of the framework.

    Of course, if you so choose, you can type yourself by dichotomies and forget functions if there's a real dissonance and you relate better to a type you don't have the functions for. It's all quite subjective and personal. This is why you shouldn't seriously question someone's type. It really doesn't make enough sense to be taken seriously.
    Well most people who are assigned a type by the test are given the correct function pairing, meaning that testing for P vs. J really works in determining the attitude of your primary function pair.

    It looks like most people feel the ordering is not really that strongly related to ability, especially with the latter four functions. (I am assuming the cognitive functions test that most people have taken does test for ability, since the test uses words like better and well when referring to your usage of the functions.)
    I (89%) N (88%) T (88%) P (56%)

    Ti > Ne > Ni > Te > Si = Se > Fi > Fe

    Enneagram: 5


  6. #16
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Two functions, alike in orientation, inside someone's conscious head, where we lay this scene, inasmuch as they must have the age-old dislike of operating at the same time, there's no basic incapacity produced?

    How do a bunch of i functions operate without the intercession of some e function? Surely if one if heavy on i functions, one is stuck inside oneself--and I don't mean one is an introvert, I mean one has nothing coming in. Likewise, a bunch of e functions doing anything without some i function inside? Heavy on the e, is one even a person, or just a environmental response mechanism?

    If you've got weird function orders, do you want to keep them?

    Or more importantly, if people say they have unusual function orders, why do you believe them?


    I'm just curious because I find it really, really difficult to imagine why someone would want to avoid the simple idea that an e function paired with an i function represents balance in a good way.

    By the bye, does everyone still want perception functions paired with judgment functions?


    Ooo, conscious vs unconscious... can we really "want" a given function order, considering much of consciousness is unconscious? Well, if we can't, we aren't conscious at all, are we?


    Thus, if you have weird function orders, it's your own fault.


    I could be wrong. But why aren't you seeking "health"?

  7. #17
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlamingMask View Post
    Well some people like using theory to predict actions or analyze occurrences. If the problem is that the theory doesn't work, it can simply be changed until it can or thrown out.
    Thank you for stating something that is already widely known.

  8. #18
    Senior Member Valuable_Money's Avatar
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    I usualy get pretty high Ni when I test my functions, but thats probably because to my knowledge the differences between Ne and Ni are poorly defined.
    Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh? wgah'nagl fhtagn

  9. #19
    Member FlamingMask's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    Thank you for stating something that is already widely known.
    No problem, I thought you needed to know.
    I (89%) N (88%) T (88%) P (56%)

    Ti > Ne > Ni > Te > Si = Se > Fi > Fe

    Enneagram: 5


  10. #20
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlamingMask View Post
    No problem, I thought you needed to know.
    It's the invasion of the whippersnappers.

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