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  1. #61
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ama View Post
    I feel the same sense of detachment about a lot of my "friends" - mostly random acquaintances who are not quite socially up to par in some way. (e.g. they talk too much or are socially "off" somehow). I let them hang out with me sometimes and pretend I'm really interested in their lives and try to act really nice with them, but I don't actually care about most of these people. It's just that if I ignored them, they wouldn't have anyone else to talk to, and I don't want to make them feel bad. Then they get really clingy and want to hang out all the time.

    It's like I come off as some kind of NF poor-lonely-souls magnet or something. Weird.
    OMG that's exactly what I get too. You really hit the nail on the head there. Amazing.
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

    "When it all comes down to dust
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    I will help you if I can" - Leonard Cohen

  2. #62
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    I hate using the word "loser magnet" (and I only use it in a tongue-in-cheek way)... but I had that pattern growing up too. I constantly had people normally rejected by others latch onto me when I was growing up and into adulthood because I treated them like human beings and was nice to them. I could very much empathize with those who felt alienated from society.

    I did not really care much about the rambling monologues they'd convey about their lives, but I did care about them generally as people.

    It was just hard knowing where to draw a line. ("I like you and enjoy hearing from you on occasion, and I know life is hard; but please let go of me.")

    And i got tired of having my interest/concern for them misconstrued as romantic interest.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  3. #63
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Me too.
    My entire circle of friends at school were the misfits.

    Mind you I've never really treated anyone differently because they were this or that so I guess I'm liable to be the point of acceptance to people who are used to rejection. I like it that way. Plus at least with misfits you can be yourself and don't have to conform cause the only thing to conform to is to be yourself.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  4. #64
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    Thinking about it, it could be because xNTP's tend often to be very unjudgemental and accepting, and also perhaps the strong aversion to 'interfering', it's a kind of 'prime directive' for me with most people not to try to directly interfere with their personal development. If I have a problem with something about them, I prefer not to mention it for several reasons:

    1. It's just a matter of personal taste, and I don't see why someone should change a quality that others might like, just because I don't.
    2. If someone changes their behaviour, I'd rather it was through their own choice, because they personally decided it was the best thing and saw their errors and wanted to correct them. I don't like the idea of 'controlling' people's behaviour or choices through making them aware of my personal responses to them.
    3. I want people to always feel free to be themselves, and I'm hugely averse to insincerity and fakery, so I don't want to encourage people to behave in an inauthentic manner purely out of a desire to get themselves off the hook with me, when they don't really understand the problem - if they did, they'd have spotted it on their own.

    Sad thing is, the backlog of these unspoken 'nays' that have been taken for 'yays' blows up in your face when you find it all gets a bit too much and want to take a step back or two.
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

    "When it all comes down to dust
    I will kill you if I must
    I will help you if I can" - Leonard Cohen

  5. #65
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    Thinking about it, it could be because xNTP's tend often to be very unjudgemental and accepting, and also perhaps the strong aversion to 'interfering', it's a kind of 'prime directive' for me with most people not to try to directly interfere with their personal development. If I have a problem with something about them, I prefer not to mention it for several reasons:

    1. It's just a matter of personal taste, and I don't see why someone should change a quality that others might like, just because I don't.
    2. If someone changes their behaviour, I'd rather it was through their own choice, because they personally decided it was the best thing and saw their errors and wanted to correct them. I don't like the idea of 'controlling' people's behaviour or choices through making them aware of my personal responses to them.
    3. I want people to always feel free to be themselves, and I'm hugely averse to insincerity and fakery, so I don't want to encourage people to behave in an inauthentic manner purely out of a desire to get themselves off the hook with me, when they don't really understand the problem - if they did, they'd have spotted it on their own.

    Sad thing is, the backlog of these unspoken 'nays' that have been taken for 'yays' blows up in your face when you find it all gets a bit too much and want to take a step back or two.
    Isn't that altering their development through deliberately altering what you want to say and edging round certain subjects?
    If my friend said "I'm off out to buy an 2900XTX" I'd still argue the merits of that decision. To allow them to go off blindly would be a disservice.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    Isn't that altering their development through deliberately altering what you want to say and edging round certain subjects?
    If my friend said "I'm off out to buy an 2900XTX" I'd still argue the merits of that decision. To allow them to go off blindly would be a disservice.
    Oh well yeah, sure, but I don't mean things like that. I mean if they have a certain way of dealing with people, or of um, well, interpreting events, a way of responding to things that I find weird and/or screwed up, if they specifically ask for my opinion then I'll give it, but I don't go around criticising people and trying to change them just because I personally don't like something about them or find it hard to relate to. I won't just interrupt someone when they're telling me something to say, "You know, this is totally fucked up, your whole worldview is crazy!"

    Cos it could just be that they're not, and that I'm the one in the wrong, y'know? So maybe this is the ... what someone else was saying, the tendency against certainty of any kind, sureness, the unconfidence in one's own judgements due to believing or suspecting oneself to have overlooked something, you know?

    I'm not suggesting this is a better way, I'm just saying it's the way I work generally, and it's often misconstrued, and lands me in trouble at times. And results in people being hurt - so if anything I'm far from praising this attitude. Just explaining it and confessing to it.

    I don't know what other approach I could take though, that I'd feel comfortable with.
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

    "When it all comes down to dust
    I will kill you if I must
    I will help you if I can" - Leonard Cohen

  7. #67
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    Oh well yeah, sure, but I don't mean things like that. I mean if they have a certain way of dealing with people, or of um, well, interpreting events, a way of responding to things that I find weird and/or screwed up, if they specifically ask for my opinion then I'll give it, but I don't go around criticising people and trying to change them just because I personally don't like something about them or find it hard to relate to. I won't just interrupt someone when they're telling me something to say, "You know, this is totally fucked up, your whole worldview is crazy!"

    Cos it could just be that they're not, and that I'm the one in the wrong, y'know? So maybe this is the ... what someone else was saying, the tendency against certainty of any kind, sureness, the unconfidence in one's own judgements due to believing or suspecting oneself to have overlooked something, you know?

    I'm not suggesting this is a better way, I'm just saying it's the way I work generally, and it's often misconstrued, and lands me in trouble at times. And results in people being hurt - so if anything I'm far from praising this attitude. Just explaining it and confessing to it.

    I don't know what other approach I could take though, that I'd feel comfortable with.

    So you do stuff that you yourself disagree with? Cool

    Maybe that's all you need to remember to stop yourself from correcting others too much. It gives you empathy.

    Oh and I think the whole "why the hell would you do/ think/ say that? It's stupid" is most definitely an NT thing Read some Jeremy Clarkeson and feel normal again
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  8. #68
    On a mission Usehername's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    I've always seen the NT condition as "thought and emotion aren't necessarily attached together" hence how NTs can think of death or even suicide in a quite removed and analytical manner.
    i've never thought of this so explicitly. but it's true.
    *You don't have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body.
    *Faith is the art of holding on to things your reason once accepted, despite your changing moods.
    C.S. Lewis

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post

    So you do stuff that you yourself disagree with? Cool
    Not disagree with as such... it's more like I tend to assume there are always plenty of judgemental gits who go around criticising people, and it's probably because of too much 'knocking down' that these idiots become the way they are, so I tend to think of my function as being the person who doesn't do that shit, I sorta want to be an 'oasis of non-judgement' for these people, hoping that after a while, having someone accept them and believe in them might help build their confidence and thereby improve their social skills - a lot of the poor social skills are directly because of low self-esteem making people clingy and controlling of the few friends they get, out of fear of losing them. It can also be why they talk too much or too fast or whatever - fear that the person's gonna walk away any minute, so they have to get their words out as quick as possible while they've got them.

    Quite often, my approach works, and people do improve and become more confident. I've known a few ugly ducklings turn into swans, get lives and fly the nest as it were, becoming now too busy with other things to get round to seeing me, and nothing's more rewarding.

    It's just a sad 'other side of the coin' type thing, that inevitably, some people won't improve, or they're gonna take more than I've got, so it turns bad in the end. To me though, so far, it doesn't constitute a good enough reason in itself to let myself become 'just like everyone else'.
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

    "When it all comes down to dust
    I will kill you if I must
    I will help you if I can" - Leonard Cohen

  10. #70
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    Thinking about it, it could be because xNTP's tend often to be very unjudgemental and accepting, and also perhaps the strong aversion to 'interfering', it's a kind of 'prime directive' for me with most people not to try to directly interfere with their personal development...
    exactly. Very good assessment here.

    Even when I have an opinion, I hate telling others what to do, and I do think of it in specific terms of the "non-interference" concept.

    Essentially, if I force someone to do something, or put pressure on them, even if it's something good, it means they have not really made the decision -- I am controlling them. So it doesn't even really count, in terms of what is best for them and their own growth.

    [Honestly, parenting young children is hard for me. I enjoy exploring them as they get older and engaging them in discussion. I do not like dictating what should be done.]

    So everyone must make their own decisions.

    I also understand growth is a process, and if I force someone to do the "right thing" when they are not ready, it will be ineffective. All I can really do is listen, engage, discuss, offer wisdom and experience, and then support them if I believe they have the right intentions... even if they are making some mistakes.

    And I am very accepting. People tell me that I am "safe" to be around. I can handle anything someone might tell me, and see things from their perspective. Again, because I am not imposing myself over top of it, I am looking for the inherent patterns intrinsic to their experience and then working with THOSE.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

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