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Thread: Stupid NTs

  1. #91
    Senior Member Valuable_Money's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    For some reason my visceral response to this thread keeps being "Ayn Rand."
    On a side not shes an INTJ. OP is an ENTJ.

    Unhealthy TE can be like that.
    Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh? wgah'nagl fhtagn

  2. #92

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    Just some thoughts.

    I think we need evidence to claim anything is NT-type intelligence. As far as IQ tests go, the only thing I've heard is that they are N biased.

    Einstein is a pretty classic INTP. I'm not doubting it. I think a lot of great scientists get stereotyped to be NT by field though, and not a lot of people have really gone into their personalities.
    Freude, schöner Götterfunken Tochter aus Elysium, Wir betreten feuertrunken, Himmlische, dein Heiligtum! Deine Zauber binden wieder Was die Mode streng geteilt; Alle Menschen werden Brüder, Wo dein sanfter Flügel weilt.

  3. #93
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    I don't think you'll find an NT anywhere that doesn't want to be "intelligent". "Clever', "smart", "insightful", "right", "true", all those. Some may not do it well. All will desire it. Any T will want to be smart, surely. "Smart" would mean they're succeeding at their preferred mode of being. Or, if not "smart", maybe just "not stupid". "Stupid" would be shameful.

    NT: "Naw, Tom, let's just go play with turtles, I got a shotgun n everything, fuckin algorythmns and workflow and computers, dunno what ya talkin about. I'm clever, but. Real clever. I got cheese for catching the turtles."

  4. #94

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    . I know they seem to want to be intelligent, but might that skew the view of some of the less perceptive types. Like when the government repeats something enough, people start believing it, and even the government starts believing it. Though there is also the idea that what you want to be, you become.
    Freude, schöner Götterfunken Tochter aus Elysium, Wir betreten feuertrunken, Himmlische, dein Heiligtum! Deine Zauber binden wieder Was die Mode streng geteilt; Alle Menschen werden Brüder, Wo dein sanfter Flügel weilt.

  5. #95
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Naw, I'm saying something like it's going to be hard work taking "intelligent" out of the definition of NT. Like, what's an NT? Oh, just some guy who thinks a lot, might not get it right, kinda crap at feeling stuff too, but whatcha gonna do, right?

    If we're potentially quite dumb, what have we got left?

    Thus, whip out the IQ test and get ready to weep, the smart guys are coming to town!



    And for thread purposes, if it takes you five years to understand new theoretical principles, no, that's not being N. Being N means you immediately--IMMEDIATELY!--see possibilities for connection to what you know. You don't actually understand immediately, but you do see the web of connection start spinning. Or at least you think it'll start spinning because you know that's what you do when understanding is on its way.

    And for general understanding purposes, fuck! People don't have percentages on their preferences! They have percentages on their awareness of their preferences. Ergo, in fact, to discover if NTs are definitionally intelligent, we need a significantly better model than MBTI because MBTI gives no measurement at all of how strongly functional your function is. (And having said that, note that blah blah blah obviously intelligence must vary even in the NT community, for I've allowed that strength of the functioning of a function can vary. And effect of functioning must vary too. And so freakin on.)

    You'll all be hearing from my lawyers.

  6. #96

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    Freude, schöner Götterfunken Tochter aus Elysium, Wir betreten feuertrunken, Himmlische, dein Heiligtum! Deine Zauber binden wieder Was die Mode streng geteilt; Alle Menschen werden Brüder, Wo dein sanfter Flügel weilt.

  7. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by noigmn View Post
    Just some thoughts.

    I think we need evidence to claim anything is NT-type intelligence. As far as IQ tests go, the only thing I've heard is that they are N biased.
    I wouldn't even say they are N "biased". I can see no reason that would prevent intelligence influencing cognitive preference.

    I will use a bad analogy to illustrate :
    Imagine you had a "Physical Exercise Type Indicator" with one type being long distance running (LDR). Then imagine you had another instrument that correlated well with said type such as Body mass index. It would be silly to say that "BMI is biased towards long distance running". Replace BMI with IQ and LDR with NT and you'll see that the situation is not entirely unlike.

  8. #98
    Senior Member SubjectA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ace_ View Post
    It's not sarcasm. It's a well known fact that intuitive people have an advantage in science and philosophy. I thought it was obvious.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ace_
    Science and philosophy require abstract thinking. N people are abstract thinkers. They are idea people which is also a big advantage in science. Science and especially philosophy require a lot of theorizing which is obviously where intuitive people excel. You're not going to discover something new if you dislike theorizing about different possibilities.
    Assuming that you even bothered to decipher the difference between S and N in the first place, you'd know that sensors and intuitives can contribute different skill sets to science. Science isn't just about dreaming up possibilities. Any scientist will tell you that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ace_ View Post
    Science and philosophy require abstract thinking. N people are abstract thinkers. They are idea people which is also a big advantage in science. Science and especially philosophy require a lot of theorizing which is obviously where intuitive people excel. You're not going to discover something new if you dislike theorizing about different possibilities.

    Can you name one good ISFJ scientist? Or at least an average one?
    I didn't know you could speak for the whole world now.

    Given how many ISFJs are out there, you're willing to assert that not a single one of them is a successful scientist?

    Having an SF doesn't prevent you from doing anything or having any successful job you want. No set of letters do.
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  9. #99
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    Ergo, in fact, to discover if NTs are definitionally intelligent, we need a significantly better model than MBTI because MBTI gives no measurement at all of how strongly functional your function is.

    That could be posted 100 times in this forum, and people still won't get it.

    I was reading another forum and someone had "typed" a co-worker as ISFP.
    The alleged ISFP then took a test and came out ENTP.
    Surprising to anyone? It really shouldn't be.
    There's an assumption built into MBTI:
    Our preferred functions are our most conscious.

    Since when did it become a fact that what we are most conscious of,
    is actually stronger than what we are most unconscious of?

    Someone could claim they don't prefer Se, yet clearly exhibit strength in Se without even realizing it.

    Just because a type theory suggests a person is "weak" or "strong" in a particular function,
    doesn't make it true.

  10. #100
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    Werl... a friend likes to test his girlfriends. One of them took the test three times, different result each time, none of them ISFJ, which is what I believe she fits.

    But anyway by "strongly functional" I meant something like "actually works, delivers the goods".

    I own to being a believer. I like function orders that pair an e with an i. I like the idea that using one kind of function will preclude easy simultaneous use of some others--like for example someone trying to say they use Ti and Fi at the same time doesn't seem right. I'm content too with the idea that the lower in the function order, the more mentally costly it is to maintain conscious use. (Like I know from experience that I can go on Se trips, appreciating flowers and trees and perspective and roads and wind and sweating, but I also know that I space out after not too long and start thinking of other things, and I can come back to the Se moment if I put some effort in, but... and so on.) I also take it for granted that somehow or other it just does happen that there are 4 chosen ones and 4 shadows. Just using myself as the one easy access subject I have, the theory does seem to work, so I believe.

    The thing that bugs me however is, I guess, the lack of really personal expressive depth. The archetypes work for me so I grant them the status of working for everyone else too (just to make it easier to like the theory), but I guess the fact is, they don't really work, not really. They, and MBTI, go only so far into expressing what it is to have an identity. There's a frustrating drop off in expressive power for this model, perhaps right at the most interesting point. (Or at least it's the interesting point once one has gone some way into the model and started wanting more.)

    So for example, I'd guess there'll be some IRL correlation between being NT and being intelligent, but it seems like MBTI really doesn't have the juice to genuinely say why (or why not). Or what, or how. The really interesting parts of the person, as far as MBTI goes, are left up to accidents of birth, environment, and who the hell knows what else.


    *pout*

    *wants better*

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