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  1. #31
    Senior Member Rohsiph's Avatar
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    I have five minutes before I need to trek off to my Friday afternoon class, but want to try giving a cursory answer . . .

    Re: op--Struggle. Much doubt when younger, particularly to do with implicitly noticing the nonsensical conformities in organized religion (mostly, through age 13, I disliked church goings-on because my parents would force me to wear formal clothing without good reasoning). Was mostly apathetic through high-school, arriving at a palpable identification with polytheisms as a means-to-an-end shortly before graduating (that is, I decided it seemed pretty neat to claim "my patron god is Thor").

    Looked at things more in-depth when starting early undergrad Philosophy-major courses, meeting a preacher about two years ago. I listened to his arguments, and found almost all of them to be incompatible with my view--everything he said reeked of giving an "easy answer" to difficult questions.

    Currently, I respect "faith" but not "belief." There is a fine distinction between them--I have found people who claim absolute belief in any kind of deity generally have poor reasons. However, I understand faith as something internally illogical, and thus am almost always willing to listen to the views of persons with faith in whatever religion.

    Personally, I am atheistic while somehow having faith in a form of afterlife. I'm just about out of time, but I want to try explaining a little more detail here: I find myself having the greatest amount of faith in my own willpower, such that I have trouble accepting the belief that my intellect will perish along with my body. I might even assert *belief* that my will is strong enough such that my mind will persist, whether there is an exterior world in which for it to persist or not after my body ceases to function.

    Might add more later (or at least proof-read after I get back from class).

  2. #32
    Senior Member lazyhappy's Avatar
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    I don't know how to answer this but the NT's i know aren't the most religious.

    mom-entj- egnostic, believes there is something out there but doesn't know what

    sister- entp- egnostic/athiest?

    Me-intp- confused and thinks that we will never know if we are tied up to machines having these images projected to us... or if earth was made by something/someone or... i dunno... there are to many theories and right now... i don't care. I like theories of how we were created but i don't necicarily (sp) believe any...

  3. #33
    Senior Member Roger Mexico's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by niki View Post
    I have a curious question:
    how does NT view religions?
    what is the NT's notions of "God" ? can NT be as 'spiritual/religious' as most NF seems to be ?

    and what does NT think , specifically, of Christianity concept of God? does it make sense? is it acceptable, or it is not acceptable for NT's rationale? and what's the reasons?

    and for some unknown reason, is it true that NT's are more interested towards the New-Age-ism, or Buddhism, Hinduism, or even pantheism notion of "God" , rather than those Abrahamic religions (ie: Islam, Christianity, Judaism) ?
    does this have anything to do at all with one being an "NT" (as opposed to an SJ, or ST, or NF, etc ) ?
    I'd say you'd have to do a very careful survey and statistical analysis of your results to get an objective answer to this. But, personally:

    I think my mother's an NF, and she's very religious. As such, we were all expected to go to church, (United Methodist) Sunday school, confirmation, etc.

    I hated it. I never accepted the idea that it was a necessary or even helpful part of a full, satisfying life. My instinctive rebellion against it has resulted in me becoming somewhat militant in my atheism.

    If you ask me, it's a perfectly satsifying explanation for life, the universe, and everything to say that biological life is a self-perpetuating chemical chain reaction that is simply a product of the complex physical processes that make the universe what it is. If you think of the earth as an "open system" where the planet is constantly being bombarded by high-energy radiation, and all that energy has to go somewhere, then it makes sense to see all the bustling of plants and animals and microbes as part of an entropic process of dispersing that energy. No mystical, metaphysical explanations needed.

    I answer questions like "Who am I? What is the purpose of my existence?" by deconstructing notions like self, identity and purpose and contextualizing them as aspects of how my body interacts with its environment. This approach satisfies my need for coherence because it provides effective rebuttals to every logical, factual objection that could be raised against it.

    My Nf mother, however, would find such an explanation to be entirely unsatisfying, since it doesn't offer much emotional comfort. I think she's more interested in questions like "how do I find meaning and contentment in life?" and my system can only offer analysis of the semantic origins of concepts like "contentment," which doesn't really help someone trying to become content. So she approaches the "big questions" by postulating that her emotions are the most appropriate way to assess reality, and a conceit like a conscious God creating the world and putting her in it helps her make sense of how she feels about the whole thing.

    She always says she's a Christian because she believes the world would be a better place if everyone studied and embraced the "true" essence of the philosophy that Christ taught. This kind of thinking is anathema to how my mind operates: regardless of the implications on human behavior or my emotional state, I can't accept the "truths" of any system of thought if the basic assumptions underlying it don't stand up under logical scrutiny. I don't understand how she can just decide to adopt a system of belief because it conveys the right "message." She doesn't get how I could dislike something that's so "positive and uplifting" just because it isn't based on obejectively verifiable facts.

    I don't know if NT's would be more drawn to certain religions over others. I guess I really don't know that "New Age" is a meaningful rubric, but if you mean by it the idea that reality is subjective and that a person "creates" their own reality by choosing to believe certain things, then I'd say NT's would be unlikely to find such ideas appealing. The way that New Age spirituality privileges the subjective and personal over the objective and factual would probably be anathema to an NT's need to understand the world before they go about trying to influence it.

    I guess Buddhism, with its emphasis on Enlightenment and expanded awareness, rather than strict adherence to moralistic rules, might have some appeal to an NT, but our inclination to question things probably means that an NT who would reject one religion would likely reject all religion on the principle of rejecting simple and easy answers.

    Personally, I find the Christian theological position to be untenable. It just doesn't make sense that a perfect, all-knowing entity would create humans in His/Her/Its own image but not make us perfect. The only reason to limit our physical, mental, or moral abilities would be for the sake of an experiment to see what we'd do, but if God knows everything then He already knows the answer to His own question, so there's no need to run the test in the first place. The Christian deity is unavoidably anthropomorphic, and an anthropomorphic God is an idea riddled with flaws in its logic.

    Actually, I took a class on Islamic religion back in college, and I'd say Muslim theology is theoretically a bit more compatible with a need for logical coherence than is Christian theology. If, as many Muslim scholars have written, "God" is simply a way of expressing the same concept that Plato referred to as "the sun" in his cave metaphor--the single, universal truth of which all the varied phenomena we perceive are merely an imperfect reflection--then I can see an NT deriving a great deal of insight from the pursuit of an education in theology. But "Islam" understood as a set of unquestionable truths and rigid rules would be just as problematic from an NT standpoint as any other religion understood the same way.

  4. #34
    Senior Member reason's Avatar
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    Atheism is just so last season. Not my style.
    A criticism that can be brought against everything ought not to be brought against anything.

  5. #35
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    I am a Christian and as get older I see more and more how true the Bible is.

  6. #36
    Aspie Idealist TaylorS's Avatar
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    IMO one should make a distinction between xNTP and xNTJ believers.

    A religious xNTP will tend towards believing in a highly intellectualized god, such as Aristotle's "Unmoved Mover", Spinoza's pantheistic "God or Nature," the Deistic "Supreme Being" of the Enlightenment, etc. as a result of Ti.

    A religious xINJ, I would guess, would emphasize more the various "religious experiences" and "divine revelation" coming from Ni. and "translate" those perceptions into a form others can understand using Te.
    Autistic INFP


  7. #37
    Resident Snot-Nose GZA's Avatar
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    One of my NT friends (ENTP) says, and I quote "I'm agnostic, as in I-don't-fucking-care". Thats quite to the point!

    My other NT friends and relatives are generally either aetheist or agnostic (the "I don't care" type of agnostic, although I think that that isn't really being agnostic, its more atheism)

  8. #38
    On a mission Usehername's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TaylorS View Post
    IMO one should make a distinction between xNTP and xNTJ believers.

    A religious xNTP will tend towards believing in a highly intellectualized god, such as Aristotle's "Unmoved Mover", Spinoza's pantheistic "God or Nature," the Deistic "Supreme Being" of the Enlightenment, etc. as a result of Ti.

    A religious INTJ, I would guess, would emphasize more the various "religious experiences" and "divine revelation" coming from Ni. and "translate" those perceptions into a form others can understand using Te.
    Yes.

    Growing up as a child in the faith allows for experiences to be witnessed and add parts to your foundational understanding of the world. People who are raised Christians and leave this have to tear their framework to approach the world apart; raised Christians who make their faith their own simply tweak and flesh out the framework.

    the INTJ has the Ni to lead and I'm sure this helps. Especially once you witness God and find His voice more clearly. Then your faith has so much life to it, and I think it's comforting to find something inexpressibly... conceptually tangible(? oxymoron?) for the NT to rely on. We're not just our brains. I'll let C.S. Lewis take it from there
    *You don't have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body.
    *Faith is the art of holding on to things your reason once accepted, despite your changing moods.
    C.S. Lewis

  9. #39
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by harold View Post
    I am a Christian and as get older I see more and more how true the Bible is.
    That's weird. I'm also a Christian, but as I get older I see more and more how untrue most of it is, and yet this only seems to strengthen my faith... comme c'est bizarre!
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  10. #40
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TaylorS View Post
    A religious xNTP will tend towards believing in a highly intellectualized god, such as Aristotle's "Unmoved Mover", Spinoza's pantheistic "God or Nature," the Deistic "Supreme Being" of the Enlightenment, etc. as a result of Ti.
    It tend to lead there... but there are many layers added to that. (After all, INTPs are more than just Ti. Every human being is more than their primary function.)

    We're not all BlueWing, you know.

    A religious xINJ, I would guess, would emphasize more the various "religious experiences" and "divine revelation" coming from Ni. and "translate" those perceptions into a form others can understand using Te.
    I think religious experiences are important as part of the data flow that must be used to fuel Ti thinking. Ti cannot afford to be completely abstracted from the outer world as many of the Greeks did with spiritual and ethical beliefs, otherwise it might not reflect reality... and thus becomes Untrue.

    The obvious problem with religious experience is that it is subjective; you cannot completely trust someone's description of their experience as a universal truth. Instead, you need to listen to lots of stories and see what common ground seems to appear, that might be a useful basis from which to fuel a Ti model of the spiritual within human existence.

    Sometimes N and T war with each other. I feel like I constantly flip back and forth. Using Ne, I can see multiple patterns that suggest a particular truth, but they do not provide a firm basis from which to deduce -- only to induce -- truth with Ti. At the same time, I can receive gut impressions from Ni because I can see multiple perspectives, or sometimes things just "click" and I feel strongly that something is true.... but then Ti rips it down and points out that there is no firm basis on which to evaluate the spiritual belief. So it becomes a matter of faith. Which Ti undermines because it's a different process altogether.

    it is a very messy process.

    Intellectually, I am essentially an agnostic. Intuitively, I seem to find myself a Christian (although not one of a specific doctrine, but one who is stripped-down to core values ). Don't ask me what any of that means.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

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