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  1. #11
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    Most notably it was ISTPs that were most anti-religion by a fair margin, which I found interesting. NTs were not particularily open or closed to religion as a whole or specifically.
    One possibility -- the tertiary Ni of ISTP would be skeptical if not cynical about religion in general ("What's 'the system' trying to get me to believe?"), and this is what I've seen with the few ISTPs here on MBTIc (indifference or aggression towards religious belief... as if the system is mere exploitative).

    If the INTP is brought up in Christian faith, this gets incorporated into Si. And the pattern-seeking Ne will often identify with the themes of the faith (and thus buy into it), even if some specific doctrine seems sketchy in places and ends up being rejected because it's illogical.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  2. #12
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    One possibility -- the tertiary Ni of ISTP would be skeptical if not cynical about religion in general ("What's 'the system' trying to get me to believe?"), and this is what I've seen with the few ISTPs here on MBTIc (indifference or aggression towards religious belief... as if the system is mere exploitative).

    If the INTP is brought up in Christian faith, this gets incorporated into Si. And the pattern-seeking Ne will often identify with the themes of the faith (and thus buy into it), even if some specific doctrine seems sketchy in places and ends up being rejected because it's illogical.
    Great MBTI explanation

    I believe it is a conjuction of two traits - the Ss tend to test as "concrete" along with "Open ended", this results in "show it, god damn it" (or not, I guess). These subtraits are more direct to creating a closed mind to fancy-pancy theories of possibilities, yet still open to showing them, after which they'll likely change.

    Since most religions are really crappy at showing tangible proof of god without some pretty heavy abstractions - not hands on stuff, theories on theories - STPs just sit at the crossroads of "can't show me" and "don't tell me what to do/think". I know that is where I sit, anyway. I can have conversations about religion but it always comes down to "Your people suck, hence your religion sucks"... along with "Yah, that doesn't prove that God does exist... and your religion still sucks". The evidence of formal religion tends to be rather negative overall from a strictly "preach -> do"... since the good stuff gets filtered out by "don't tell me what to do".

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mendacity View Post
    I enjoy you Uberfuhrer.
    I enjoy me, too.

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    I should point out that within MBTI, it is along the J/P access that seems to define opinion and openness to religion, or at least, Christianity (dominant religion in some studies). In short, Ps question.

    Most notably it was ISTPs that were most anti-religion by a fair margin, which I found interesting. NTs were not particularily open or closed to religion as a whole or specifically.
    While what you say is true, note that the term used was "other belief systems". Indeed, research does show that, if anything, it is people high in conscientiousness (and agreeableness) that tend to be the most religious.

    The problem is that, in studies exploring transcendental beliefs, there is mostly a focus on populations that adhere to more traditional belief systems already prevalent in their culture. People into alternative belief systems than those of their culture fall into another category, that remains untapped in majority by the studies that mention that high A and C are linked to religiosity.

    It is a high openness to experience that is in fact linked to exploring alternate belief systems and esoterism, as was alluded by the OP when talking about New Age and pantheism, and which was the point your were specifically responding to.

  5. #15
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick View Post
    It is a high openness to experience that is in fact linked to exploring alternate belief systems and esoterism, as was alluded by the OP when talking about New Age and pantheism, and which was the point your were specifically responding to.
    Eh, what I meant is that the correlation between MBTI and FFM may not be as close as the major correlation would suggest for this subset of beliefs.

  6. #16
    Glowy Goopy Goodness The_Liquid_Laser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by niki View Post
    I have a curious question:
    how does NT view religions?
    what is the NT's notions of "God" ? can NT be as 'spiritual/religious' as most NF seems to be ?

    and what does NT think , specifically, of Christianity concept of God? does it make sense? is it acceptable, or it is not acceptable for NT's rationale? and what's the reasons?

    and for some unknown reason, is it true that NT's are more interested towards the New-Age-ism, or Buddhism, Hinduism, or even pantheism notion of "God" , rather than those Abrahamic religions (ie: Islam, Christianity, Judaism) ?
    does this have anything to do at all with one being an "NT" (as opposed to an SJ, or ST, or NF, etc ) ?
    Does Christianity make sense? Looking at it from a modern humanistic view it probably does not. I did not believe in God for most of my life, and one big reason is that it didn't seem to make any sense. Christianity in particular seemed to make the least sense. I thought, "if any religion in the world is right, it certainly cannot be Christianity". Instead I tried to reason what was the right way to live, and what was true in this world. Relying solely on reason lead me only to depression and meaninglessness.

    After exhausting what I viewed as the reasonable alternatives, I turned to the unreasonable ones. After all if there is no reasonable explanation available, then the correct explanation must be unreasonable. And to make a long story short (too late) I found the Christian message to be the one that actually works. Now I am a Christian. I am not a Christian because I have faith in Christianity or because I have faith in Christians. I am a Christian because of my faith in Christ. Christ (and his grace) is what makes Christianity worthwhile. It's not because of anything coming from morality, or going to church, or any promise of heaven. Those things are helpful, but they don't make Christianity worthwhile. Christ does.
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  7. #17
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    I'm a Christian INTJ, and I agree with what the Liquid Laser says in the second paragraph of the above explanation. That being said, I don't particularly believe in organized religion (my faith is about my relationship with God and Christ, not my ability to sit through a sermon.) I also don't take the Bible literally, I think many things in the Bible are meant to be metaphors. For example, I don't believe there is a Satan, or a physical Heaven or Hell. I believe "Heaven" is being in the presence of God, "Hell" is being in the absence of God's presence, and "Satan" is a metaphor of inherent temptation. But that's just me, I wouldn't speak for other Christians or other NTs.

  8. #18
    Senior Member INTJMom's Avatar
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    I am a devout Christian.
    I have thought of God as important in my life since I was 4 years of age.

  9. #19
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    I met my INTP spouse at an Evangelical Bible college. We are both still believers despite the Bible college experience.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  10. #20
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    I met my INTP spouse at an Evangelical Bible college. We are both still believers despite the Bible college experience.
    Does your INTP sincerely believe still? Or is that just an hold habit that he's passed up in favor of superior philosophical beliefs?

    If he does, what exactly motivates him?

    NTs tend to have difficulty finding inspiration to maintain their religious fervor because they tend to be impersonally inspired to live their lives the way they chose. An NF, I could understand how they'd retain their religious beliefs for a long period of time, as they need a personal reason to inspire their actions. As for example, believing that there is a being who loves them and would approve of their every action if they pleased him would likely suffice. This is much like their relationship with a parent or a spouse. I am not surprised that religious belief is much more common among Fs than Ts and even NFs who are much more in tune with reason than the majority of the populace stand a considerable chance of being life-long Christians. Yet, I just wonder how NTs, especially INTPs or ENTJs--the radical thinkers manage it, without feeling like it all has been a terrible drudger to bare.

    Would appreciate if you'd let me know more of his general approach to Christianity and how he finds the motivation to remain in faith. Does he not become envious of other NTs who have the great liberty to explore ideas that he does not, being tied to religion like a dog to a chain?

    I have an older ENTP friend who is a senior pastor at a pentacoste church, recently we've discussed my philosophical discoveries after losing faith. He has not told me about his mindset, but we connected much better after this. He even made a comment that implicitly suggested that because of his fascination with chaos theories, he likes messing with the minds of SJs by asking open-minded questions and being as intuitive as possible and thus stirring them into a panic. Whilst, because of his mastery with persona building (skills associated with dominant Ne), they can not come after him because he successfully passed himself off as their fellow fundamentalist.

    In short, he is compelled to keep on searching for reasons to keep his faith (it all has to come from within for him because his Ti is strong, just like for myself, and it all has to be founded on impersonal motives) because of all the emotional obligations that he is environed in in his church--stemming from his inferior Fe, yet cannot find any genuine reasons to do so, as he is stuck in the mud. He certainly envied me for how I was able to explore ideas without wondering what orthodoxy I've just crossed. He is tied to his religious worldview like a dog to a chain. And he is an intensely externally focused ENTP, I would never wish such an evil to happen to an INTP, a type that tends to produce personalities that are likely more idea oriented than he is.
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