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  1. #71
    Sniffles
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    Ok let's now turn to the historical developments of scientific inquiry and how religion(Christianity specifically) actually played a significant role in this:

    But Christian theology impinged on science in return and altered its character. Certain aspects of Aristotelian natural philosophy, such as its determinism (everything that will occur must occur) and its denial of a creation, were diametrically opposed to central Christian doctrines. The ensuing struggles (which were not between Christianity and science, but rather, one must note, among Christians holding different views of the proper relationship between Christianity and science) led ultimately to a theological condemnation of these and other philosophical propositions in 1270 and 1277. The complexity of the encounter between Christianity and science is illustrated nicely by the aftermath of these condemnations.13 The condemnations did place a lid on certain lines of scientific speculation; henceforth, philosophers or scientists were forbidden to uphold certain Aristotelian positions and forced to tread lightly whenever they approached theological territory. But while losing certain freedoms, they gained others. Theological condemnation of a considerable body of Aristotelian propositions weakened the heavy hand of Aristotelian authority and freed scientists to speculate in non- Aristotelian and anti-Aristotelian directions. Thus we see in the fourteenth century a steady stream of attacks on various Aristotelian doctrines and a veritable orgy of speculation about non-Aristotelian possibilities, including such notions as the rotation of the earth on its axis.

    The condemnations affected the scientific enterprise in another way. One of the central themes of the condemnations was the proclamation of God's absolute sovereignty and omnipotence. From this doctrine fol- lows the absolute contingency of nature-that the course of nature can be anything God chooses it to be and, therefore, that humankind's acquired knowledge of natural causes can be overturned simply by God's decision to do things otherwise. The condemnations thus generated a certain skepticism about the ability of the human mind to penetrate with certainty to the underlying causes of observed events; this attitude encouraged the view that science should restrict its attention to empirical fact and ignore the search for underlying causes, thus influencing the development of scientific methodology. Four hundred years later, the idea of God's absolute sovereignty and its corollary, the total passivity of matter, became central features of Isaac Newton's mechanistic world view.14

    DAVID C
    Of course some people commonly mistake issues of methodology with issues related to metaphysics.

  2. #72
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Looks like I need to repeat St. Anslem once again, Credo ut intelligam(I believe so that I may understand). Faith is the foundation for rational inquiry into the truth. Without such a foundation, any inquiry into truth will go nowhere. In logic such a foundation is called an axiom.
    An axiom is self-evident thus believed; faith (in terms of theology) isn't, it is trusted, so much so, that it is even advocated to be adhered to in the face of adversity, hence believed. Imo, science is a skeptics game, religion, one of apologetics.

    So you're setting up a strawman here concerning religious claims upon the nature of truth, and man's capabilities for discerning it.
    Can you flesh this out, how I'm setting up strawman?

    I can also add a historical dimension to the argument here as well, which I will do in a few minutes.
    I'm interested.

    Edit: got it! ^ post. Thanks.

    You seem to have fallen into the all too-common temptation of forgoing uncertain truth for certain untruth.
    Expand this please, so I may comment.

  3. #73
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    You seem to have fallen into the all too-common temptation of forgoing uncertain truth for certain untruth.
    You mean sophistry for inquiry?

  4. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by TSDesigner View Post
    Things that people believe in tend to come true.
    They are self fulfilling prophecies.
    If you truly believe in something, you tend to make it come true,
    whether it's good or bad.
    Perception shapes the way an individual person sees reality, but it doesn't actually change the concrete actions in the world by merely thinking it will. Confident people are more likely to take risks. Risks can reap rewards. In order to take a risk, action must be applied. Action doesn't occur from good thoughts alone. One must take steps towards their goals. Positive thinking might make you feel better, but will not reap riches on it's own.

    Also, you look like my brother. It was a bit distracting at first.

  5. #75
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Ok let's now turn to the historical developments of scientific inquiry and how religion(Christianity specifically) actually played a significant role in this:

    [link]

    Of course some people commonly mistake issues of methodology with issues related to metaphysics.
    Ah, yes, this is not news to me, and I already addressed this previously in my discussion with Jenocyde, but thank you for the specific example:

    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    No doubt, in the past history, most inquiry of a scientific nature was endorsed by the religious organizations, especially because those 'educated' were mostly done so to be spiritual leaders, hence, most likely to take on inquiries of other abstract/intellectual nature as well.
    Your link, some parts:
    Thus we see in the fourteenth century a steady stream of attacks on various Aristotelian doctrines and a veritable orgy of speculation about non-Aristotelian possibilities, including such notions as the rotation of the earth on its axis.
    And, then, there was poor Galileo.

    As for the rest of the points in that article, I'm not sure exactly what you're trying to illustrate or counter? Modern science, as it is now, had an intrinsic history with religion and philosophy. And? It has its own footing now. Would you like me to argue that philosophical inquiries gave fire to theology thus philosophy is 'greater', trumps? I won't as it's not a valid position.

    Btw, Francis Bacon was a huge skeptic of Aristotelian philosophy, and one of the forefathers of scientific inquiry. He was a philosopher, not influenced really by religion. And, of course, another great contributer to scientific inquiry - Galileo. Should I make a case for philosophy influencing science more than religious doctrine? Why would I? To prove what?

  6. #76
    Is Willard in Footloose!! CJ99's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
    Do you find this as hard to believe as the existance of God?
    Yes. Well not quite. But I am almost certain the god theory is wrong and I have trouble imagining an NT with a religious belief.
    "I'd never die for my beliefs, I might be wrong"

    "Is it not enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe there are fairys at the bottom of it too"

    "Intelligence is being able to hold too opposing views in the mind at the one time without going crazy" - Now all I need to figure out is if I'm intelligent or crazy!

  7. #77
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CJ99 View Post
    Yes. Well not quite. But I am almost certain the god theory is wrong and I have trouble imagining an NT with a religious belief.
    I can introduce you to some, if you'd like. There are plenty.

  8. #78
    Is Willard in Footloose!! CJ99's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    I can introduce you to some, if you'd like. There are plenty.
    Explain to me in what context they have a religious belief?

    To me belief implies some basic ideas that are unchallangable which seem to go against the basic character of an NT that anything is questionable.

    But if nothing is concrete in their faith then it is just science is it not? A collection of theories that can be changed and adapted or scrapped to make sense.
    "I'd never die for my beliefs, I might be wrong"

    "Is it not enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe there are fairys at the bottom of it too"

    "Intelligence is being able to hold too opposing views in the mind at the one time without going crazy" - Now all I need to figure out is if I'm intelligent or crazy!

  9. #79
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CJ99 View Post
    Explain to me in what context they have a religious belief?

    To me belief implies some basic ideas that are unchallangable which seem to go against the basic character of an NT that anything is questionable.

    But if nothing is concrete in their faith then it is just science is it not? A collection of theories that can be changed and adapted or scrapped to make sense.
    I can't explain their beliefs to you, that is something they would have to do. But I have a dear ENTP friend currently serving as an officer in Iraq and he firmly believes that his faith will give him the courage to soldier on and lead his men and women through this horrible thing.

    He studies his faith, probes and asks questions. He believes in the testimonies and the writings. He takes life and our symbiotic relation to the world around us as proof that a higher being designed this universe and everything in it. I can find conversations we've had through email and paste them here, if you would like, that would better explain his view. I'm sure he'd actually wish for me to do so.

  10. #80
    Is Willard in Footloose!! CJ99's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    I can't explain their beliefs to you, that is something they would have to do. But I have a dear ENTP friend currently serving as an officer in Iraq and he firmly believes that his faith will give him the courage to soldier on and lead his men and women through this horrible thing.

    He studies his faith, probes and asks questions. He believes in the testimonies and the writings. He takes life and our symbiotic relation to the world around us as proof that a higher being designed this universe and everything in it. I can find conversations we've had through email and paste them here, if you would like, that would better explain his view. I'm sure he'd actually wish for me to do so.
    Sure go for it.
    "I'd never die for my beliefs, I might be wrong"

    "Is it not enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe there are fairys at the bottom of it too"

    "Intelligence is being able to hold too opposing views in the mind at the one time without going crazy" - Now all I need to figure out is if I'm intelligent or crazy!

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