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  1. #41
    Senior Member TopherRed's Avatar
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    *Ducks as he realizes a storm is brewing and he left armor and rifle in the car...grabs popcorn bag from backpack and puts down checkered blanket.*

    I admit, I'm a smart F, but I'm no T. These arguments usually get little accomplished or proven in either direction because, as usual, all data is fallable. Still, I love hearing all the different points of view and I enjoy watching the fireworks.
    Love is the point.

  2. #42
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    Agnostic in belief
    Atheist in practice
    Culturally Jewish

    There are plenty of religious NTs. I wouldn't say they comprise the majority, but you'd be surprised just how many there are.

  3. #43
    Senior Member Galusha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kra View Post
    A calc. professor once told me, "Science is a new religion." I'm inclined to agree considering the way most people view it. Too many forget that science is just a progressive construct of what we believe we know, based on experimentation.
    My basic philosophy, in a nutshell.

    I also try to distinguish between what I believe is true and what I want to believe is true. I pray when I feel I need help, but it's not because I feel like someone's waiting there to help me-- it just puts me in a calmer place when I pretend so, and I end up being more capable of solving my own problems if I think I have a safety net.

  4. #44
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kra View Post
    A calc. professor once told me, "Science is a new religion." I'm inclined to agree considering the way most people view it. Too many forget that science is just a progressive construct of what we believe we know, based on experimentation.
    How do most view Science to warrant it the status of a 'religion'?

  5. #45
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Galusha View Post
    My basic philosophy, in a nutshell.

    I also try to distinguish between what I believe is true and what I want to believe is true. I pray when I feel I need help, but it's not because I feel like someone's waiting there to help me-- it just puts me in a calmer place when I pretend so, and I end up being more capable of solving my own problems if I think I have a safety net.
    My big problem with that statement is that it somewhat misses the point. He's right in that one of the major purposes to religion is to explain the unknown in the universe, just as science's singular purpose is.

    As an analogy, religion is an oil lamp. Science is a halogen-vapor spotlight. Both serve the purpose of distributing light. However, an oil lamp distributes light broadly and rather dimly. A halogen vapor spotlight illuminates the darkness distinctly and brightly, allowing fine details to be seen. You would never use an oil lamp for the same reasons you would use a high-candlepower halogen vapor spotlight.

    That being said, this is where the separate magisteria argument comes from. We still have oil lamps. However, we keep them more for mood and aesthetics than we do for actual illumination. The high-powered lamps are much better for that. However, their starkness and uniformity of color can be jarring and unbeautiful for many. For others, the things that they can illuminate are of unspeakable beauty, and would never be known with that oil lamp. At the same time, oil lamps tend to produce smoke and present a distinct fire danger.

  6. #46
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    How do most view Science to warrant it the status of a 'religion'?
    Because most of it is all theory and speculation.

    Or, I should add, there are quantifiable results that are turned into Laws, but the reason behind the Laws are unproven. Kind of like religion.

  7. #47
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    Because most of it is all theory and speculation.

    Or, I should add, there are quantifiable results that are turned into Laws, but the reason behind the Laws are unproven. Kind of like religion.
    A Theory is much harder science than a Law is, in modern scientific parlance. Other than thermodynamics, most Laws have been disproven in some way, particularly the Newtonian laws.

    There is a Law of Gravity. With that in mind, the first person(s) to come up with a workable and testable Theory of Gravity will win a Nobel Prize. Period.

    The next question is admittedly a philosophic one, which of course makes me feel dirty: why does there have to be a reason behind the observable universe?

  8. #48
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Yes, I know that Theories are more concrete, but nothing in this world can be certain, except observable results. There is too much that we simply cannot observe, rendering most science ineffective as a proper explanation.

    Your question is not dirty. There are many people who don't need to know why, they just accept or believe. This is where faith comes in. Then there are others who must know why. This is where skepticism rears its head. It just depends on how you choose to look at life, and everything in it.

  9. #49
    Senior Member TopherRed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    My big problem with that statement is that it somewhat misses the point. He's right in that one of the major purposes to religion is to explain the unknown in the universe, just as science's singular purpose is.

    As an analogy, religion is an oil lamp. Science is a halogen-vapor spotlight. Both serve the purpose of distributing light. However, an oil lamp distributes light broadly and rather dimly. A halogen vapor spotlight illuminates the darkness distinctly and brightly, allowing fine details to be seen. You would never use an oil lamp for the same reasons you would use a high-candlepower halogen vapor spotlight.

    That being said, this is where the separate magisteria argument comes from. We still have oil lamps. However, we keep them more for mood and aesthetics than we do for actual illumination. The high-powered lamps are much better for that. However, their starkness and uniformity of color can be jarring and unbeautiful for many. For others, the things that they can illuminate are of unspeakable beauty, and would never be known with that oil lamp. At the same time, oil lamps tend to produce smoke and present a distinct fire danger.
    Interesting analogy. I like the last part.
    Love is the point.

  10. #50
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    Yes, I know that Theories are more concrete, but nothing in this world can be certain, except observable results. There is too much that we simply cannot observe, rendering most science ineffective as a proper explanation.
    The problem with that is that when you take Heisenberg and the observer effect into account, you realize that observable results are skewed from the beginning. You'll never be able to know what is there in the absence of an observer. I don't particularly care about that.

    That's because I'm unabashedly a species chauvinist. As far as I'm concerned, since we'll never know what happens empirically in the absence of an observer, how can you hold the pure empirical standard to it? That's more the realm of theoretical mathematics, which requires no observation, just comparisons of known relationships in the universe. Einstein pieced together general relativity and universal gravitation on a serendipitous hunch he had one day - but it was right because the math worked.

    Your question is not dirty. There are many people who don't need to know why, they just accept or believe. This is where faith comes in. Then there are others who must know why. This is where skepticism rears its head. It just depends on how you choose to look at life, and everything in it.
    Meh, philosophy is dirty in my mind because it's only very rarely that you get anything practical out of it, and most of that is well past - sort of like the island of Nauru, for an odd analogy. Once all the phosphate rocks were mined out of there, all that was left was barren wasteland, and useless to all.

    My question was more one of "why are we asking why in the first place, when it's something that we cannot understand through any data we collect?" I realize that's not a very N sounding question, but then again, that's where Ne and Ni are different (as you're undoubtedly aware of).

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