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  1. #31
    Senior Member TopherRed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SubjectA View Post
    I am a rarity among NT's. I do believe in God. That being said, I'm not a Creationist and I do lend credit to the Big Bang Theory (FYI ironically it was first suggested by a Catholic priest.) I'm not a fatalist. And being a biology major, not once have I ran into a piece of information that made me question my faith and I've never had to rationalize in vain any scientific concept in order to keep my faith. Science has only made me further appreciate the complexities of God's creation.
    ).

    Whenever NTs do find faith, it's very complex, well thought out and individualistic. The best preacher I have ever heard is an ENTJ named Lance Hanh (Bridgeway Christian Church, Roseville, CA). If there are NTs looking to hear one of their own break down Biblical texts from a Christian prespective, I would invite them to join me some Saturday if they're anywhere near Sacramento.
    Love is the point.

  2. #32
    Senior Member Erudur's Avatar
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    I am a theist - and I believe that the bible provides insight into the nature of the creator.

    I find a lot of the secularist dismissal of the bible irrational, and i find a lot of dogmatic interpretation of the bible irrational. I personally believe that the bible was overshadowed by the creator, and is infallible. But the human understanding of its infallibility is fallible.

    On ages and dates, i often have the uneasy feeling that there are shaky assumptions that may often be circular when pinned down. So i view many date/age contentions of creationists and scientists as questionable.

    Without being an expert in physics, i find the hypothesis that the speed of light is slowing down very compelling.

    Speed of light slowing down?

    If this is true, you can throw out everything related to the origins of matter in general, and the earth in particular.

    My gut tells me that when the truth is known, it will tie everything together. In the meantime the more truth is known, the better things will tie together.

  3. #33
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuzzcrossed View Post
    ).

    Whenever NTs do find faith, it's very complex, well thought out and individualistic. The best preacher I have ever heard is an ENTJ named Lance Hanh (Bridgeway Christian Church, Roseville, CA). If there are NTs looking to hear one of their own break down Biblical texts from a Christian prespective, I would invite them to join me some Saturday if they're anywhere near Sacramento.
    Saturday? Are you SDA?

  4. #34
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erudur View Post
    I find a lot of the secularist dismissal of the bible irrational, and i find a lot of dogmatic interpretation of the bible irrational. I personally believe that the bible was overshadowed by the creator, and is infallible. But the human understanding of its infallibility is fallible.
    Do you find the dismissal of other religious texts irrational, as well, or is this limited to Christianity?

  5. #35
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Every belief of mine is up for falsification.

    God is not a belief of mine. Its premise seems dishonest in that it disallows falsification.

  6. #36
    Senior Member NoahFence's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    Its premise seems dishonest in that it disallows falsification.
    Is something disallowed if you lack the capability to accomplish it?
    "I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use." - Galileo

  7. #37
    Senior Member Erudur's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    Do you find the dismissal of other religious texts irrational, as well, or is this limited to Christianity?
    Some, yes.

    I am pretty critical of the recently "revealed" mormon scriptures. I am also critical of the double standard applied to textual criticism of say the gnostic texts (favorable - with so little corroborative manuscripts) versus the canonical texts (highly skeptical - with, relatively speaking, a great number of corroborative manuscripts).

    Here is an example of an irrational type of secular criticism of the BC scriptures: Scholars want to dismiss the biblical record's intrinsic claims regarding the origin of the law of Moses in favor of the theory that it was derived from Hammurabi's code during the Babylonian captivity. In my mind there are, at a minimum, 4 plausible explanations for the similarities (and disparities).

    1-the biblical claim is true and the two codes are coincidentally similar
    1b-the biblical claim is true and the two codes are similar because of a previously unwritten or a more ancient undiscovered written code that was codified with more detail by Moses and Hammurabi.
    2-the biblical claim is partly true and the two codes have a common source
    3-the bible dates are off and Hammurabi is the source
    4-the babylonian dates are off and Moses is the source for Hammurabi


    Why do scholars seem to dismiss all but 3? That irks me. At this point, I personally, must allow for the possibility of all four, though I am inclined to believe 1.

    I am interested in all mythology, as well as all ancient texts. I think there are clues to be gleaned from many sources. But because of the scriptural account, I believe some ancient texts are a true reflection of an ancient, competing false cosmology.

  8. #38
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erudur View Post

    I am pretty critical of the recently "revealed" mormon scriptures. <snip>

    I am interested in all mythology, as well as all ancient texts. I think there are clues to be gleaned from many sources. But because of the scriptural account, I believe some ancient texts are a true reflection of an ancient, competing false cosmology.
    In 1000 years, many people who would have denied the Book of Mormon in this present day may accept it fully because it happened "so long ago".

    I am not challenging you, but I have one question out of curiosity. Is it within the realm of your thinking that these ancient texts, such as the Bible, were taken as lightly as the Book of Mormon in their time but have gained credence simply because there is no way to disprove it, since it happened so long ago?

  9. #39
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
    Is something disallowed if you lack the capability to accomplish it?
    Falsification does not work like that. E.g. in scientific theories, falsification is not implied because it CAN be accomplished, but, the very notion of falsification as a possibility, in the first place, is its validity. That would be an honest premise....however, my contention:

    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    Its premise seems dishonest in that it disallows falsification.
    in that, there's 'ways' to get to god, while at the same time, it being out of your reach because of its inherent characterisitics of omni-. I.e. the premise morphs itself to suit a certain 'need' and jumps out of reach to suit another, so it can never be 'wrong'. It's self-fulfilling...and there's a taste of dishonesty to that.

    Such that, thinking about accomplishing falsification (allowed or disallowed) isn't even relevant, as much as the way the premise is set up.

  10. #40
    Senior Member TopherRed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    Saturday? Are you SDA?
    No, Bridgeway isn't my home church. Many larger Christian churches of all denominations have Saturday night services to accomidate the younger crowd and those who don't like to get up in the morning.

    I have a "home" church elsewhere on Sunday mornings though, so I couldn't go to Bridgeway then.
    Love is the point.

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