[MBTI General] What is N like without F?

[Athenian200]

I've recently discovered that I can't picture it. No matter how I look at things, it seems as if desire or morality is always somewhere in relation to the picture. As a result, I've found myself unable to relate to NTs, because I can't seem to conceive of ideas that don't involve a personal element in most arenas, while this constant conception of impersonal ideas is their main experience of reality.

The closest thing to the NT mindset that I can currently comprehend would be looking at things in terms of higher mathematics, engineering, computer programming, chemistry, astronomy, economics, or military strategy. I can't seem to look at any other kinds of abstractions without non-negligible amounts of F getting involved.

Obviously, NTs think about more than those seven things on a regular basis, but I'm incapable of venturing outside those kinds of fields without beginning to perceive things in an F fashion. In other words, I find it difficult to imagine what it's like to perceive and respond to an abstraction I see as having a personal element, as if it involved no personal elements.

So, my question is this... can you express or convey the experience of seeing and appreciating something like politics, religion, art, psychology, personal growth, mythology, or fantasy in an impersonal fashion? I can't seem to imagine it, it seems a little beyond me at this point.

 

[durentu]

I've recently discovered that I can't picture it. No matter how I look at things, it seems as if desire or morality is always somewhere in relation to the picture. As a result, I've found myself unable to relate to NTs, because I can't seem to conceive of ideas that don't involve a personal element, while this constant conception of impersonal ideas is their main experience of reality.

The closest thing to the NT mindset that I can currently comprehend would be looking at things in terms of higher mathematics, engineering, computer programming, chemistry, astronomy, economics, or military strategy. I can't seem to look at any other kinds of abstractions without non-negligible amounts of F getting involved.

Obviously, NTs think about more than those seven things on a regular basis, but I'm incapable of venturing outside those kinds of fields without beginning to perceive things in an F fashion. In other words, I find it difficult to imagine what it's like to perceive and respond to an abstraction I see as having a personal element, as if it involved no personal elements.

So, my question is this... can you express or convey the experience of seeing and appreciating something like politics, religion, art, psychology, personal growth, mythology, or fantasy in an impersonal fashion? I can't seem to imagine it, it seems a little beyond me at this point.

Daniel Goleman on compassion | Video on TED.com

I think your answer is at 7:35.


goleman is the writer of "emotional intelligence" book




It gives a certain perspective.

 

[entropie]

I thnik such a thing like N without F doesnt exist and if you convey something you always do it subjective. But the difference between a NF and a NT would be, you at least would try to convey it objectively.

And that you do with everything.

It's like standing in front of BurgerKing and mcDonalds and tho you hate McDonalds, you thing about going there everytime you stand in front of it, cause maybe now they can have something better there.

this image isnt quite fitting, but it describes the idea.

 

[jenocyde]

it's funny because I can't imagine it with a personal component. Ideas are just ideas.

I guess the main feeling is like watching something from the outside. Like mice in a maze - and then dropping different variables to see their reaction. This is how I view the human race. I guess you would even put personal meaning into that, right?

But we all have T and F.

 

[LostInNerSpace]

"Thinkers" feel about thought. "Feelers" feel about emotion. When I think of social issues it tends to be about peoples economic circumstances. "Feelers" seem more inclined to feel about family, relationships, love and community. N is about abstractions. S is about concrete things. N without F does not seem to make any sense.

 

[durentu]

But we all have T and F.

And we can turn each of the functions off if we wanted to.

Type can limit us or liberate us. Depends on how you look at it.


I sometimes wonder if we study MBTI or preach MBTI...

 

[jenocyde]

And we can turn each of the functions off if we wanted to.

Type can limit us or liberate us. Depends on how you look at it.

I don't think I could turn off Ne or Ti if I tried. But you are correct about liberation and limitation.

 

[durentu]

I don't think I could turn off Ne or Ti if I tried. But you are correct about liberation and limitation.

I noticed that I turned off my Ti all the time. I just haven't noticed it. Of course I felt disingenuous or faking the moment, but fact remains, my Ti was turned off.

These days, I'm aware of when I use my Ti. Not all the time, but I do sense it and then see if it's the best way to go about the situation.

For instance. If someone comes to me in distress. My initial reaction is to analyze and present a solution. But that doesn't work. (and are usually feeling crappier) Instead I try to turn my analysis brain off, and the Ti goes with it. I'm left with Ne Si Fe and move along that way. And it seems to be working quiet well.

An example of using Ne Si Fe is when I share a dream or paint a vision to share with the other person. And let them color my dream too. No analysis, no judgement, just playing.

You know what I mean?

 

[jenocyde]

An example of using Ne Si Fe is when I share a dream or paint a vision to share with the other person. And let them color my dream too. No analysis, no judgement, just playing.

You know what I mean?

I totally know what you mean. But I can put my Ti aside (not turn it off) and try a different method, but I can't imagine what it would be like to turn Ne off. It seems like that's simply what thinking is. I can't imagine to think another way. I don't have to analyze every thought, I guess, but it would feel creepy and fake not to do so.

 

[Athenian200]

it's funny because I can't imagine it with a personal component. Ideas are just ideas.

Well, certain nuances can't be conveyed impersonally, for me. But if the idea doesn't contain personal nuance, then it's just an idea.

I guess the main feeling is like watching something from the outside. Like mice in a maze - and then dropping different variables to see their reaction. This is how I view the human race.

I guess you would even put personal meaning into that, right?

Well, I might. I'd see it as a person who values curiosity and enjoys observation. But I don't see that as overwhelmingly personal.

I do know that perspective. It generally only happens for me, though, if I can dehumanize the people involved (including myself). Basically, I have to take them in my mind and set my mind up to represent them as numbers, programs, machines, or animals rather than people. THEN I can see things the way you described. But I wouldn't feel comfortable maintaining that perspective.

 

[jenocyde]

I have to humanize people.

 

[durentu]

I think this is where MBTI can be used to liberate. Let's ponder a bit.

ENTP Ne Ti Fe Si

So If we wanted to put Ne aside, we have to pick the types with Ne in the weakest position. To start, that would be:

ISTJ - Si Te Fi Ne
ISFJ - Si Fe Ti Ne

and Ne all the way back in 8th
ESTP - Se Ti Fe Ni
ESFP - Se Fi Te Ni

I'm sure there are times when you acting like these types. Perhaps that can give you some insight.

 

[jenocyde]

Appearing like a type and actually changing the way I process information are two different things. I might be off on my processing (due to tiredness, substances or mental unhealthiness) which may cause me to look like a different type, but I could never truly think like another type. I would look like a very, very unhealthy specimen of that type, I think.

 

[Athenian200]

I have to humanize people.

Ah. That makes sense. That's pretty much what I imagined NTs being like.

Actually, come to think of it, I guess do get things that are "just ideas."

For instance, I recently heard about a large number of people dying in some kind of situation on the news. I then found myself fantasizing about a large number of employed people in my area dying in an accident, and jobs opening up as a result (probably because I'm struggling to find a job right now). Part of me was going, "Finally, I might have a chance now that there's less competition and the positions have been forced open." There was another part going "What a disgusting idea! Ugh."

Basically, I guess I do have ideas along those lines, but I end up punishing myself for them. So, I guess being an NT is like having such ideas on a regular basis without experiencing any guilt or disgust at yourself?

 

[durentu]

Appearing like a type and actually changing the way I process information are two different things. I might be off on my processing (due to tiredness, substances or mental unhealthiness) which may cause me to look like a different type, but I could never truly think like another type. I would look like a very, very unhealthy specimen of that type, I think.

I noticed once that no matter what my mood ways, if I smiled, even a fake one, I always felt better. Later I found out that various neurological speakers at TED and motivational speakers, business leaders, etc all say the same thing.

Beginners always suck, this is why there is some amount of BS. But when you force your body into a certain character, it affects the way the mind works. Through IQ and EQ.

It's a different perspective from letting your mind lead your body to letting your body lead your mind. I never met anyone who danced and became depressed, regardless if they wanted to dance or not. I generally think of the shy dancer at prom.

"C'mon, let's go! it'll be fun!"

Stuff like this.

 

[jenocyde]

Basically, I guess I do have ideas along those lines, but I end up punishing myself for them. So, I guess being an NT is like having such ideas on a regular basis without experiencing any guilt or disgust at yourself?

I think you're on to something, but it seems like there is an element missing... I guess the thing is that we all have T and F. Thoughts come and go and I don't dwell on them, and certainly don't beat myself up about them. But when I humanize the story/idea, I can feel compassion or some unidentifiable feeling - not necessarily guilt, though.

 

[jenocyde]

It's a different perspective from letting your mind lead your body to letting your body lead your mind. I never met anyone who danced and became depressed, regardless if they wanted to dance or not. I generally think of the shy dancer at prom.

"C'mon, let's go! it'll be fun!"

Stuff like this.

Yes, yes but when I force myself to smile, I'm doing it consciously, because I think it will work. I use Ne to think of options and Ti to make the decision to force myself to smile to put myself in a good mood. The mind always leads the body - at least for me.

 

[foodeater]

This may be a good example/metaphor.. at least, I was surprised I hadn't thought of it when I read it. In "Moon" a corporation built a base on the far side of the moon to mine helium 3 as a fuel source.

According to director Duncan Jones, the film was shown to some NASA scientists who questioned why harvesting of H3 would not take place on the near side of the moon, where H3 is in more abundance. The explanation given was that the choice was made to harvest the far side so as not to affect wildlife.

Things like that just don't occur to me.

 

[Frank]

Like Jack Daniels without the hangover.

 

[entropie]

Well, certain nuances can't be conveyed impersonally, for me. But if the idea doesn't contain personal nuance, then it's just an idea.


Well, I might. I'd see it as a person who values curiosity and enjoys observation. But I don't see that as overwhelmingly personal.

I do know that perspective. It generally only happens for me, though, if I can dehumanize the people involved (including myself). Basically, I have to take them in my mind and set my mind up to represent them as numbers, programs, machines, or animals rather than people. THEN I can see things the way you described. But I wouldn't feel comfortable maintaining that perspective.

There is one thing that makes logically no sense. If you are unhappy with the way you see people, then you ask others about their way, but why then still justify how you see people. Then again, if you are happy with the way you see, people, then why ask others.

Ultimately this leads to one logical conclusion. You can ask now every person who thinks different all the way you want. But you wont understand them, cause you havent understood you yourself yet.