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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by durentu View Post
    An interesting thought.

    If the mind leads the body, does the mind decide to feel pain?
    yes.

  2. #42
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    Better, yet different.
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
    ... In theory.

    “I’d hate to die twice. It’s so boring.”
    Richard Feynman's last recorded words

    "Great is the human who has not lost his childlike heart."
    Mencius (Meng-Tse), 4th century BCE

  3. #43
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by durentu View Post
    An interesting thought.

    If the mind leads the body, does the mind decide to feel pain?
    Yes. For the most part. Not for extreme things like having a limb severed. But I can go a day or two without eating simply because I don't want to make the effort or I need to finish a project, I just choose to ignore the hunger and then I simply don't feel it.

  4. #44
    rawr Costrin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    Actually, that's how I think most of the time, which is why I thought I had an idea of the NT perspective. But then I kind of worried... well, what if I don't really have an idea of it, because an NTs Feeling is more tied up with inferior or tertiary Sensing, and thus they experience emotions in a completely different way than NFs do? Or what if my Thinking works very differently than theirs because it's more tied to Sensing rather than any form of Intuition?
    Actually, I don't think that's the case. My F isn't tied with S, and your T isn't tied with S.

    So basically, I guess was trying to figure out if NTs have feelings about ideas and abstractions like NFs do, or whether their feelings are limited to underdeveloped versions of SF-style feelings and values (even though I wouldn't have considered this before).
    For me, ideas are just ideas and they either make sense or not. Actions though, can be good or bad. It's ok to think about killing someone, as long as you don't actually do it. Ideas are fun to play with and explore and think about and are ultimately just ideas and can't harm anyone. Actions though, can affect others and can do things and actually cause harm. Ideas can influence behaviour, but isn't the behaviour itself. What actually happens is what's important. That's my perspective at least.

    It was mostly prompted by simulatedworld, I guess... because he implied that NTs don't think about guilt, and since he sees being bothered by crime having positive results as lamenting an amoral world, he even made me question whether they even value justice, security, and consistency (which I know is ridiculous, but it crossed my mind for a moment).
    Simulatedworld is not representative of all NTs and is not our spokesman. I for one disagree with him on quite a few things.

    Ah, this is reassuring. He really did make me afraid that NTs experience Ni THAT differently
    Yup, us Ne peeps often think we know what Ni is.

    Here's what I wrote on INTJf when I went there to ask how they'd describe impersonal Ni:

    "My impression was that it just sounds like a lot of cathartic, pseudo-intellectual nonsense that glorifies idealizing and striving for the sake of the object rather than the idea... in other words, Ne in a different form with Ti or Fi mixed in. It just seems to glorify purposeless expansion and striving, and it truly annoys me to have this associated with Ni."
    Well that's rather judgmental!

    It's funny. When I talk to INTJs, or some INTPs, I'm left with the impression that NTs are awesome, interesting, likable, and easy to relate to... just a little oblivious to their own and/or other people's feelings. But when I talk to some ENTx types, or a very particular kind of crude INTx, I think their motivations are totally alien and scary (though some ENTPs give me the same impression as an INTx).
    WHY DO YOU HATE US?!?!
    "All humour has a foundation of truth."
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  5. #45
    morose bourgeoisie
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    Quote Originally Posted by cloud View Post
    NTs believe more in social darwinism, and that morality is subjective.
    NFs I don't know what they believe in, but they seem to have a strict sense of right and wrong and have more compassion than their T counterparts.

    The best example of an NT who lacks faith in morality is machievelli, who said the ends justify the means.

    As for having evil thoughts and wishing malice on other people, all human beings have those once in awhile, so you should not view yourself gulity for this.

    Without NTs, the world would not have towering achievements like buildings,telecommunications , missiles, and all sorts of advance technology.
    Without NFs, the world would be cold and ruthless, no one would care for other people other than themselves, and there would be no moral justice.

    So the two balacne each other out.
    THis is a good example of how MBTI only works effectively in one direction. It can be very revealing of a person's own tendencies and proclivities, but it is highly inaccurate in determining anything about anyone else.

    I don't think social Darwinism is a product of the NT mind. A truly rational person should understand how untenable that belief is.
    There are a lot fo left-handed students in architecture school, and I don't know any lefties who aren't pretty right-brained, and that usually means NF, or at least a strong degree of F. How do you explain that? Why would such a person be there if it was so obvioiusly the pervue of the rational mind alone?
    My point is that humanity is too complex, our social interactions and motivations too difficult to disentangle, to follow a simple one-to-one correspondence with certain beliefs as you have stated.

  6. #46
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    It's funny. When I talk to INTJs, or some INTPs, I'm left with the impression that NTs are awesome, interesting, likable, and easy to relate to... just a little oblivious to their own and/or other people's feelings. But when I talk to some ENTx types, or a very particular kind of crude INTx, I think their motivations are totally alien and scary (though some ENTPs give me the same impression as an INTx).
    That might be our sense of humor manifesting itself. Think Monty Python. They talk about some absolutely horrifying and offensive stuff, but it's always to point out the mundane and absurd quibbles that these things include. If Hannah Arendt wasn't an ENTx, she had to at least gain an understanding of our way of looking at things to come up with a concept like the banality of evil.

    What is scary about our motivations?

    If the mind leads the body, does the mind decide to feel pain?
    It really depends on the situation/type of pain, and the level of Sx sublimation/maturity. I can ignore pain if I need to, but oftentimes that's tempered with the knowledge that if this isn't taken care of, it can lead to negative consequences down the line. There's also a level of degree - if it's interfering with my thinking in any way, it's going to be taken care of. It's why a toothache won't get me to go to the dentist, but a cold that's lasted a few days too long will get me in to see the doctor immediately (not only because of the potential fun next few days from modern pharmacopoeia ).

    At the same note, the analysis that usually accompanies a given emotional state allows us to reconcile that state with the outside world, so even if it persists, we can go on with a straight face.

  7. #47
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nebbykoo View Post
    I don't think social Darwinism is a product of the NT mind. A truly rational person should understand how untenable that belief is.
    Social Darwinism is about as STJ as any concept I can think of. Ne/Ni would see the inconsistencies much too quickly (such as bad luck determining many people's social status). Not only that, there's the idea of "why punish someone for something they can't help? That's not just"

  8. #48
    ish red no longer *sad* nightning's Avatar
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    ^ +1

    How do you determine what the best traits and characteristics are that should be preserved and promoted? Ni especially looks at things from various different perspectives. So what's good in one situation might not necessarily be good in another. I can't really see how you can justified A is good and B is bad, therefore you should eliminate B.
    My stuff (design & other junk) lives here: http://nnbox.ca

  9. #49
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Costrin View Post
    Actually, I don't think that's the case. My F isn't tied with S, and your T isn't tied with S.
    Well, that's good to hear. It's just that that was the only way I could make sense of what Simulatedworld said.

    For me, ideas are just ideas and they either make sense or not. Actions though, can be good or bad. It's ok to think about killing someone, as long as you don't actually do it. Ideas are fun to play with and explore and think about and are ultimately just ideas and can't harm anyone. Actions though, can affect others and can do things and actually cause harm. Ideas can influence behaviour, but isn't the behaviour itself. What actually happens is what's important. That's my perspective at least.
    I suppose I would agree. An idea can't really be bad in the way an action can.
    Simulatedworld is not representative of all NTs and is not our spokesman. I for one disagree with him on quite a few things.
    Well, make sure to point that out to him. He keeps acting like he is.

    Yup, us Ne peeps often think we know what Ni is.
    Well... that's understandable. You analyze everything so much, you think you'll get it eventually. But Ni isn't about analysis.
    Well that's rather judgmental!
    Yeah, but those are my feelings. I'm a Judge, so it surprising I'd be judgmental?

    That judgment was only in the frame of it being used to claim to understand Ni, though. Not an absolute one about the nature of the song.

    WHY DO YOU HATE US?!?!
    I don't. Why do you think I do?
    That might be our sense of humor manifesting itself. Think Monty Python. They talk about some absolutely horrifying and offensive stuff, but it's always to point out the mundane and absurd quibbles that these things include. If Hannah Arendt wasn't an ENTx, she had to at least gain an understanding of our way of looking at things to come up with a concept like the banality of evil.

    What is scary about our motivations?
    Oh, I find Monty Python amusing. One of my favorite types of humor, actually. It's not that.

    Well, what's scary about your motivations is that from what I can tell (from that one song simulatedworld gave and a few others), there's this insane drive for expansion, pushing, growing, and imposing without purpose. That's what scares me... so much undirected drive and willpower being taken for granted, assumed to have an inherent meaning without even being looked at or examined.

    If NTs didn't have emotions, that actually wouldn't bother me. They'd just be computers then. Computers aren't scary. They have no will. What bothers me is the fact that they DO have emotions, but the thought that those emotions work in ways that don't make any sense, can't be modified by experience or appeal, and which they have no control over. Is it not frightening to imagine a being with a giant intellect and several capabilities being powered and directed by a simplistic, unyielding will that has no idea of the impact it's causing? It's the stuff of sci-fi horror.

    That was an extreme idea, though. Definitely not true of individuals. And also, I should emphasize it would really only apply to the nature of an archetype, not of real people. Real people don't have a single type.

  10. #50
    rawr Costrin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    Well... that's understandable. You analyze everything so much, you think you'll get it eventually. But Ni isn't about analysis.
    Heh. Well I think I've got a pretty good idea now, but it took quite a while.


    Yeah, but those are my feelings. I'm a Judge, so it surprising I'd be judgmental?

    That judgment was only in the frame of it being used to claim to understand Ni, though. Not an absolute one about the nature of the song.



    I don't. Why do you think I do?
    I was kidding.
    "All humour has a foundation of truth."
    - Costrin

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