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Thread: Rant on INTJs

  1. #31
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    Kiddo...

    After reading that, you sound like an INTJ.




    Well, anyway, a complaint about INTJ thought processes -- they like to understand the game but they don't like to play it. They'd rather stay above it. And it's hard to deal with...

    The flawed logic comes from that INTJs have no problems with working off of assumptions that they make, like most SJs. They don't work like INTPs in that they need the precise, precise truth, but rather are going by, 'in this context, this means this, and that means that, and this over here means something or other.' Symbols are more meaningful than facts, and if an INTJ second-guesses these assumptions that they make to work out any problems, they will not get anywhere at all. While INTPs struggle to see what's there INTJs struggle for interpretation. That's why INTPs usually worry about fact-based errors and make more interpretation-based errors while INTJs usually worry about interpretation-based errors when usually they make more fact-based errors.

  2. #32
    Senior Member Veneti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post

    Well, anyway, a complaint about INTJ thought processes -- they like to understand the game but they don't like to play it. They'd rather stay above it. And it's hard to deal with...
    Yes, you do get that way, Its like, why can't I just delegate all that stuff and get on with "higher order things".

    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    The flawed logic comes from that INTJs have no problems with working off of assumptions that they make, like most SJs. They don't work like INTPs in that they need the precise, precise truth, but rather are going by, 'in this context, this means this, and that means that, and this over here means something or other.' Symbols are more meaningful than facts, and if an INTJ second-guesses these assumptions that they make to work out any problems, they will not get anywhere at all.
    That sounds nice in theory, but one of the main reasons why I believe INTJs are just smart is that they have to make it through an STJ world before they can open up with their N. I'd say most INTJs rely on their S until the payoff of using intuition gets favorable (In the sense they can trust their instincts more). I seriously don't rate INTPs although prehaps they are smarter than a lot of INTJs... but they do grate me more though... If my ass was on a battlefield I'd be sh*t scared as they are poor at contingency thinking thats for sure.

    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    While INTPs struggle to see what's there INTJs struggle for interpretation. That's why INTPs usually worry about fact-based errors and make more interpretation-based errors while INTJs usually worry about interpretation-based errors when usually they make more fact-based errors.
    I have a big problem with MBTI in this area, as the J function within the INTJ would ordinarily be better than the P for closure and attention to detail. I see INTPs more like ISTJs. Intuition I believe is one of the least able to determine factors and as such theres loads of non intuitives thinking they are intuitive. Someone who is intuitive (In my theory) is an incedibly deep thinker and intuition arises out of well worn pathways in the mind... its auto suggestion.

  3. #33
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    INTJs believe they are right, unless they don't believe they are right, in which case they won't comment. This makes people think they're very arrogant.

    So often I've made errors of interpretation. People get into arguments with INTJs and end up with "They told me that their argument was the same as my argument the whole time, therefore they won! What an asshole!" I cannot say how many times this has happened to me, only I see the source. An INTJ may phrase something in a specific way because they want it to be interpreted a certain way, while another person will explain that they are wrong while arguing the same thing. Such as, well, overly-simplified, "90% of people don't die in car crashes" "No, you're wrong! 10% of people DO die in car crashes!" Well, the complexity of language makes it much, much harder to decode but it's more or less the same thing. Because of emotional stakes in these sorts of arguments the INTJ may smugly point out that they've been arguing the same thing the whole time and the other person will get mad.

    INTJs get upset when somebody shrugs off their reasoning without proving that they understand it. To convince an INTJ that they're wrong you have to prove it up, down, and sideways -- and admittedly, this would be frustrating for most people.

  4. #34
    Senior Member sriv's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    INTJs believe they are right, unless they don't believe they are right, in which case they won't comment.
    Usually INTJs do not commit to such an argument if they are not completely sure they are right. So in most cases they are right.
    Reyson: ...If you were to change your ways, I'm sure we could rebuild the relationship the two of us once shared.

    Naesala: Oh no, that I could never do. You see, humans are essential to the fulfillment of my ambitions.

    Reyson: You've changed, Naesala. If this is the path you've chosen, I've nothing left to say.

  5. #35
    Senior Member Veneti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    INTJs believe they are right, unless they don't believe they are right, in which case they won't comment. This makes people think they're very arrogant.

    So often I've made errors of interpretation. People get into arguments with INTJs and end up with "They told me that their argument was the same as my argument the whole time, therefore they won! What an asshole!" I cannot say how many times this has happened to me, only I see the source. An INTJ may phrase something in a specific way because they want it to be interpreted a certain way, while another person will explain that they are wrong while arguing the same thing. Such as, well, overly-simplified, "90% of people don't die in car crashes" "No, you're wrong! 10% of people DO die in car crashes!" Well, the complexity of language makes it much, much harder to decode but it's more or less the same thing. Because of emotional stakes in these sorts of arguments the INTJ may smugly point out that they've been arguing the same thing the whole time and the other person will get mad.

    INTJs get upset when somebody shrugs off their reasoning without proving that they understand it. To convince an INTJ that they're wrong you have to prove it up, down, and sideways -- and admittedly, this would be frustrating for most people.
    The biggest problem is non INTJs being too precise. Thats why arguments start. Like all the BS about "unless you have statistical proof" then they can't agree. Errrr.. I get out of bed in the morning and I don't need statistical proof that it won't get dark any minute...

    Yes, the difference in focus and what we are happy to accept as sufficient evidence is probably where it all starts. We'll accept logic without absolute proof in order to limb out and see some new territory.

  6. #36
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Veneti View Post
    The biggest problem is non INTJs being too precise. Thats why arguments start. Like all the BS about "unless you have statistical proof" then they can't agree. Errrr.. I get out of bed in the morning and I don't need statistical proof that it won't get dark any minute...

    Yes, the difference in focus and what we are happy to accept as sufficient evidence is probably where it all starts. We'll accept logic without absolute proof in order to limb out and see some new territory.
    And the problem is that, with statistical proof, you can easily pull that right out of your ass -- most INTJs know this, I believe. If you see a number, suddenly it becomes verified, where, well, do they have any idea how statistics come about? Statistics can be terribly inaccurate, even if statisticians don't have an agenda when they create the statistic. As they always say, there are three types of lies: little white lies, big dirty lies, and statistics.

    INTJs prefer to follow dom Ni as evidence instead of what appears to be evidence to other people... which causes trouble. This may also be a very INTJ perspective, but the one that gets proven correct is the one that is correct, and because dom Ni is pretty reliable to us, we decide that our 'evidence' is juuuust fine. Proof has little importance unless you're going to use it.

  7. #37
    Junior Member newvoho's Avatar
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    rock, hard rock:::: the scorpions, queen, jesper kid (not rock at all)

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  8. #38
    Furry Critter with Claws Kiddo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    Kiddo...

    After reading that, you sound like an INTJ.
    You are so cruel.

    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
    OMNi: Wisdom at the cost of Sanity.

  9. #39
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    You are so cruel.

    Maybe not precisely INTJ, but there is far too much Ni in your arguments for my liking. If what you hate is always thinking themselves right, then you can't do it with an argument in which you 'know' things in the same way an INTJ presents his argument. It makes your argument appear weak.

    It may annoy the hell out of people but the "I'm right until I learn more, and then I readjust my stance to be right again, so therefore I'm still right" isn't a bad way to live, even though it annoys some (well, most) people to no end. Let's face it, doubt does not feel nice, does it? It's just that you've got to be careful about not rubbing people the wrong way...

    And, I've heard that narcissism is the INTJ's first defense mechanism. Otherwise the world would eat them alive. Face it, confidence is all they've got. "My opinions change as the facts change" and all that.

  10. #40
    Senior Member Veneti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    Maybe not precisely INTJ, but there is far too much Ni in your arguments for my liking. If what you hate is always thinking themselves right, then you can't do it with an argument in which you 'know' things in the same way an INTJ presents his argument. It makes your argument appear weak.

    It may annoy the hell out of people but the "I'm right until I learn more, and then I readjust my stance to be right again, so therefore I'm still right" isn't a bad way to live, even though it annoys some (well, most) people to no end. Let's face it, doubt does not feel nice, does it? It's just that you've got to be careful about not rubbing people the wrong way...

    And, I've heard that narcissism is the INTJ's first defense mechanism. Otherwise the world would eat them alive. Face it, confidence is all they've got. "My opinions change as the facts change" and all that.
    What most people can't understand is that most things in life are a qualitative assessment. Only by using this type of fuzzy association logic can you see bigger pictures. Us INTJs tend to see the world as interconnected and anaolgies from science and the natural world apply to other tasks such as business... in fact this type of intuitive comparision is what leads us to interesting innovations... a new perspective.

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