[ENTJ] Rant on ENTJs

[FDG]

I had an ENTJ roommate who had lots of annoying traits.

1. If he went into a business and if anyone treated him less than ideal, he would badger that poor empolyee until he got something for free. I watched him reduce a McDonald's drive-threw girl to tears. After he made a rude comment to her, she gave him a look and he kept asking to see her manager while making rather mean comments about minimum wage fast food workers. And of course he got his meal comped.

2. He had no moral scruples at all. I watched him cheat on and lie to the women he dated without blinking an eye and then tear into them for not trusting him. He would then go on and on about how stupid and pathetic women were. I watched him threaten and intimidate people for "opening their mouths" to the point that they would pay him off. I watched him rip into guys for smoking weed while he would actually sell the stuff.

3. He absolutely loved me even though I despised him. I still can't figure that one out.

Finally I got sick of it and moved out. I wish he had never taken the MBTI and told me his results because that personality type is ruined for me forever.

Oh, I don't think the 2) part is type relate though, don't you think?

 

[substitute]

Oh, I don't think the 2) part is type relate though, don't you think?

Dunno, sounds like a very unhealthy Enneagram 8 to me.

 

[Kiddo]

Oh, I don't think the 2) part is type relate though, don't you think?

I was only describing some annoying traits in an ENTJ that I knew. I notice you aren't questioning the first part.

 

[FDG]

I was only describing some annoying traits in an ENTJ that I knew. I notice you aren't questioning the first part.

I don't personally do that, but I could see it more easily as being a "part" of an unhealthy ENTJ personality, that's why I'm not openly questioning it.

Dunno, sounds like a very unhealthy Enneagram 8 to me.

Or 3?

 

[meanlittlechimp]

Got this excerpt describing the "NPA" personality type which sums up the biggest problem I have with ENTJs.

"If someone does not uphold his standards of perfection, then he will become indignant. He will spread his arms at the sides, with the palms up, in that characteristic stance of perfectionist incredulity. "How could you let that happen? Didn't you realize that... ? What is going on here?" If criticized, he will respond immediately and arrogantly in defense, with no prior reflection on the merits of the criticism, like a porcupine bristling its quills. If angered, he becomes sarcastic and ill-mannered; he becomes rude and he shouts. He may become involved in shouting matches, or even fisticuffs, in public with strangers. And if his pride or vanity is trampled upon, he may be incited to the narcissistic-perfectionistic-aggressive blind super-rage, which has been described earlier. The intensity of this red-faced rage may shock others seeing it for the first time."

The redeeming quality about them is as soon as their burst of anger is over, it's over. It's like they go through temporary insanity but it subsides almost as quickly as it happens. They don't hold a grudge against me, even if I escalate with extremely harsh retaliation for their initial unwarranted behavior. It's the only type that can cause me to explode with anger (usually everything rolls off my back).

As the other poster said though, it often does propel me to perform better because of the increased sense of competition as well as keeping some of the more sloth like members of a team, to stay motivated (myself included). Also, I think the above comments only apply to some of the more un-developed or insecure ENTJs.

I also know one, who doesn't have any of these issues, because he informed me he used to get the snot beat out of him at a young age when he acted up (he grew up in a tough neighborhood). I have a theory the ones that have more rage issues tend to be the ones who actually came from more nurturing environments where they have more of a sense of entitlement, which might help fuel their particular brand of aggressive-narcissism.

 

[Maverick]

Got this excerpt describing the "NPA" personality type which sums up the biggest problem I have with ENTJs.

"If someone does not uphold his standards of perfection, then he will become indignant. He will spread his arms at the sides, with the palms up, in that characteristic stance of perfectionist incredulity. "How could you let that happen? Didn't you realize that... ? What is going on here?" If criticized, he will respond immediately and arrogantly in defense, with no prior reflection on the merits of the criticism, like a porcupine bristling its quills. If angered, he becomes sarcastic and ill-mannered; he becomes rude and he shouts. He may become involved in shouting matches, or even fisticuffs, in public with strangers. And if his pride or vanity is trampled upon, he may be incited to the narcissistic-perfectionistic-aggressive blind super-rage, which has been described earlier. The intensity of this red-faced rage may shock others seeing it for the first time."

The redeeming quality about them is as soon as their burst of anger is over, it's over. It's like they go through temporary insanity but it subsides almost as quickly as it happens. They generally don't hold a grudge against me, even if I escalate with extremely harsh retaliation for their initial unwarranted behavior. It's the only type that can cause me to explode with anger (usually everything rolls off my back).

As the other poster said though, it often does propel me to perform better because of the increased sense of competition as well keeping some of the more sloth like members of a team, to stay motivated (myself included).

But you are talking about another category than personality, that is personality disorders. How can terms from a system used to describe unhealthy people be applied to a personality system supposed to describe "normal" people?

 

[meanlittlechimp]

But you are talking about another category than personality, that is personality disorders. How can terms from a system used to describe unhealthy people be applied to a personality system supposed to describe "normal" people?

It seems that a lot of ENTJs develop this specific personalty disorder, when they are emotionally unhealthy and even the ones that are healthy, I suspect have these tendencies. I could be wrong, however.

There is this reality show called "Flipping" (on Bravo) which reminds of many ENTJs I've met. I'm not sure if he has a disorder or he's merely an unhealthy ENTJs in particular; but it's eerily reminiscent of people I know. There is a unique quality to the condescension, that I've only ever seen in ENTJs (not all mind you)

YouTube - Preview of Episode 5 of Flipping Out on Bravo

YouTube - Episode 6 Preview of Flipping Out on Bravo

YouTube - Preview of Flipping Out Episode 4

 

[Maverick]

It seems that a lot of ENTJs develop this specific personalty disorder, when they are emotionally unhealthy and even the ones that are healthy, I suspect have these tendencies. I could be wrong, however.

But the MBTI is supposed to describe the normal spectrum of human personality.

As such, how can we know that the people who have these disorders are ENTJ's gone bad, and not, for example, ISTJ's, INFP's, ENFJ's (or whatever) gone bad and seemingly looking like ENTJ's?

There is a theory stating that, when people are under stress, they tend to adopt the opposite preferences than those they have and become like "negative" versions of that type. It could very well be then that these extreme reactions you mention are not from unhealthy ENTJ's, but unhealthy personality types that adopt similar traits when under stress.

I'm not saying this is necessarily the case, though, but it remains to be known if we can type people with personality disorders using the MBTI or if these people fall into an entirely different category for which the MBTI is not meant to be applied. Maybe the disorders are the extremes of normal personality traits, maybe there are not (i.e. the opposite type and shadow theory). In any case, though, they cannot be used to explain behavior shown by "healthy" types in a satisfactory way (more like a caricature in case the first theory is true, and not at all in case the second is).

 

[meanlittlechimp]

But the MBTI is supposed to describe the normal spectrum of human personality.

As such, how can we know that the people who have these disorders are ENTJ's gone bad, and not, for example, ISTJ's, INFP's, ENFJ's (or whatever) gone bad and seemingly looking like ENTJ's?

I can't speak about people in general with the disorder, and I'm not even sure the ENTJs I actually know even have that disorder, but a few phrases in that disorder describe their regular actions pretty well (not just under stress).

So I'm not saying that all people with that disorder are necessarily ENTJs, it's merely conjecture on my part (though I suspect most are).

I've seen and met lots of people stressed out and I can't imagine an INFP or ISTJ acting like what I described in a consistent fashion, but again - I'm just theorizing.

 

[GirlAmerica]

She can curse worse than any truckdriver.
Uses the most shocking and dramatic language I have ever encountered.
Is unrealistic about the perfection level of cleanliness of her home.
Struggles with how to dress 'girly'.
Is highly demanding of those around her.

Has an awesome sense of humor.
Strives to do what is right no matter what.
Speaks my language.
Has an incredible gift of writing.

My best friend since we were 5 in kindergarten.
I couldnt live without her if I tried.

 

[Maverick]

I can't speak about people in general with the disorder, and I'm not even sure the ENTJs I actually know even have that disorder, but a few phrases in that disorder describe their regular actions pretty well (not just under stress).

So I'm not saying that all people with that disorder are necessarily ENTJs, it's merely conjecture on my part (though I suspect most are).

I've seen and met lots of people stressed out and I can't imagine an INFP or ISTJ acting like what I described in a consistent fashion, but again - I'm just theorizing.

The fact that a few phrases describe their regular actions does not mean that the rest does. In fact, in taking any random personality description, there is a high probability that one will find traits that confirm whatever personality we're trying to identify, ours or another (i.e. confirmation bias).

So if not all people with that disorder are ENTJ, why is it used as an example for ENTJ behavior?

I'm not saying that you're wrong, I'm just saying that there's no way to know and that there are equally valid alternative explanations that wait to be tested before we can decide for sure. The shadow theory is one of those explanations proposed for personalities under stress. For example, it predicts that (http://www.teamtechnology.co.uk/myers-briggs/isfp.htm):

Under extreme stress, fatigue or illness, the ISFP's shadow may appear - a negative form of ENTJ. Example characteristics are:

being very critical and finding fault with almost everything
becoming bossy and ignoring others' feelings
having a very pessimistic view of the future
see hidden meanings that are not really there

Now, I bet that this ISFP under stress exhibiting these symptoms would be seen as actually a very bad ENTJ. And there are reasons to think that many people in their professional life are *consistently* under stress and could be showing this behavior in a very regular way, even though it is not the "true" them.

 

[meanlittlechimp]

She can curse worse than any truckdriver.
Uses the most shocking and dramatic language I have ever encountered.
Is unrealistic about the perfection of level of cleanliness of her home.
Struggles with how to dress 'girly'.
Is highly demanding of those around her.

Has an awesome sense of humor.
Strives to do what is right no matter what.
Speaks my language.
Has an incredible gift of writing.

My best friend since we were 5 in kindergarten.
I couldnt live without her if I tried.

This thread is rants on ENTJs, not why we love them!

Oh btw, I never met a female ENTJ. I am dying to meet one to see if there are gender differences? Do you know any males ENTJs to compare your friend against? Incidentally, is she a good creative writer or expository writer?

I would think ENTJ is probably the most masculine of all the types and societal expectations of women must have some interesting affect on her.

 

[meanlittlechimp]

The fact that a few phrases describe their regular actions does not mean that the rest does. In fact, in taking any random personality description, there is a high probability that one will find traits that confirm whatever personality we're trying to identify, ours or another (i.e. confirmation bias).

So if not all people with that disorder are ENTJ, why is it used as an example for ENTJ behavior?

I'm just saying it's true in my observations of the one's I've personally met. I don't care about the source of the excerpt. I just like the way it was worded for my purposes. Don't put to much emphasis on the where I got the quote (I didn't mean it to be relevant)

Now, I bet that this ISFP under stress exhibiting these symptoms would be seen as actually a very bad ENTJ. And there are reasons to think that many people in their professional life are *consistently* under stress and could be showing this behavior in a very regular way, even though it is not the "true" them.

Interesting idea, but I'm not sure if one can be stressed ALL the time. You would eventually get desensitized to the stress, I would think.

I'm not exactly sold on the shadow self stuff (in some cases). I've never acted like an ISFJ ever (even stressed). I can't imagine an ISFP acting like an ENTJ even when stressed. Would be interested to see if other folks here have had observations of this occurring. I'm not saying the shadow self stuff is necessarily wrong. I'm just not sold on it yet. Even assuming an ISFP exhibits shadow self behavior occasionally, I can't ever imagine confusing one for an ENTJ or someone afflicted with NPA disorder.

 

[Maverick]

I'm just saying it's true in my observations of the one's I've personally met. I don't care about the source of the excerpt. I just like the way it was worded for my purposes. Don't put to much emphasis on the where I got the quote (I didn't mean it to be relevant)

I'm not saying it's not true, just that there are alternative explanations that need to be considered. Otherwise, there is a risk of finding facts to confirm a pre-existing belief/theory. There is no way of knowing if your typing was accurate, or if your observations are not affected by a preconception you may have about ENTJ's.

Interesting idea, but I'm not sure if one can be stressed ALL the time. You would eventually get desensitized to the stress, I would think.

I'm not exactly sold on the shadow self stuff (in some cases). I've never acted like an ISFJ ever (even stressed). I can't imagine an ISFP acting like an ENTJ even when stressed. Would be interested to see if other folks here have had observations of this occurring. I'm not saying the shadow self stuff is necessarily wrong. I'm just not sold on it yet. Even assuming an ISFP exhibits shadow self behavior occasionally, I can't ever imagine confusing one for an ENTJ.

Well suppose these types were stressed in situations where they were the most visible, such as in presentations or when giving orders to their subordinates.

I don't know about the validity of the shadow theory. In terms of anecdotal evidence, I do find I function like a negative ISFP under stress.

Even if this theory isn't true, the fact is that there should be differences in behavior between ENTJ's and ENTJ's that have a personality disorder. The latter are not meant to be described by usual MBTI descriptions. Their behavior should not be generalized to other ENTJ's.

 

[FDG]

Associating specific personality disorders such as type-A or NPD to the ENTJ type leads to typing all the ENTJs that do not display such behavior as ENTPs.

 

[anii]

The presumption that just because they think something's a great idea, the rest of us will just fall into line and follow along.

 

[Mendacity]

I have two female ENTJ friends and my mother is also an ENTJ. I think that one of the most striking similarities between all three is something that came out the strongest in romantic relationships. If they thought an event (like a birthday or an anniversary) should happen a certain way (he shows up with roses, they have a candle light dinner etc etc), and then it failed to happen as they imagined because they never made their expectations clear, they will get incredibly upset and yell and scream or lock themselves in a bathroom and cry. This has always bothered me.
Also, they seem to view most relationships as power struggles.
However. I love my ENTJs and in most respects I have a great deal of respect for them. All three are some of the most intelligent and most ethical people that I know.

Oh btw, I never met a female ENTJ. I am dying to meet one to see if there are gender differences? Do you know any males ENTJs to compare your friend against? Incidentally, is she a good creative writer or expository writer?

I would think ENTJ is probably the most masculine of all the types and societal expectations of women must have some interesting affect on her.

I've never met a male ENTJ in rl, but your initial description sounds pretty typical of the females I know too. However, they tend to be less violent I think than what you described. They do have this attitude of, "What's wrong with you!?" and tend to get unaccountably upset if people don't live up to their expectations.

 

[Sahara]

I haven't met an ENTJ in real life yet, but when I do lol

 

[Mycroft]

I would think ENTJ is probably the most masculine of all the types and societal expectations of women must have some interesting affect on her.

Imagine ENTJs who got shit for being who they are all throughout their formative years and you can probably form a reasonably accurate mental image of what female ENTJs can be like.

 

[FDG]

I have two female ENTJ friends and my mother is also an ENTJ. I think that one of the most striking similarities between all three is something that came out the strongest in romantic relationships. If they thought an event (like a birthday or an anniversary) should happen a certain way (he shows up with roses, they have a candle light dinner etc etc), and then it failed to happen as they imagined because they never made their expectations clear, they will get incredibly upset and yell and scream or lock themselves in a bathroom and cry. This has always bothered me.

I'm a male, but the "incredibly upset" part applies to me too. I think it's completely reasonable to have unspoken expectations in regard to this kind of basic stuff. Actually, in regard to most stuff. I don't think that voicing expectations is good because you impose things on another person. On the other hand, I'll still have those expectations, and so I'll get angry if they aren't being met.