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[MBTI General] Intuitive Bible processing

A Schnitzel

WTF is this dude saying?
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1,155
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INTP
Good question, it's just my opinion that it's better, but looking at my experiment, I would rather eat the food that has recieved positive energy, rather than the negative. My body get's it's energy from these chemicals so I'd rather have what I percieve as better quality chemicals, and if it's so easy as to say some nice things to change bad quality to good quality(at least to some degree, it's not water to wine here) then I'll do it.

I agree with you. There's nothing wrong with praying before a meal since it makes you enjoy it more. All I was saying is that the mechanisms behind it are rooted in biology and are the same reason chefs dress food up to make it look more appealing, or waiters wear tuxedos at 5 star restaurants. Whether you believe God created that mechanism or not is up to personal belief.
 

onemoretime

Dreaming the life
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Good question, it's just my opinion that it's better, but looking at my experiment, I would rather eat the food that has recieved positive energy, rather than the negative. My body get's it's energy from these chemicals so I'd rather have what I percieve as better quality chemicals, and if it's so easy as to say some nice things to change bad quality to good quality(at least to some degree, it's not water to wine here) then I'll do it.

How can you make an objective claim off of a completely subjective experience?

Re: your jars - where's your control in that experiment? Have you repeated it enough times to make a predictive claim and remove outliers?
 

INTJ123

HAHHAHHAH!
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Messages
777
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ESFP
I agree with you. There's nothing wrong with praying before a meal since it makes you enjoy it more. All I was saying is that the mechanisms behind it are rooted in biology and are the same reason chefs dress food up to make it look more appealing, or waiters wear tuxedos at 5 star restaurants. Whether you believe God created that mechanism or not is up to personal belief.

If that's how you want to interpret it....
I wouldn't personally explain it exactly that way.
 

INTJ123

HAHHAHHAH!
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lolz.... actually, it's more like shooting sluggish fish in tiny barrels with both barrels.
(... and at this point it's become, "I'm not a troll, you are!" "No, YOU are!" "No, YOU...!" ad nauseum)

...

I don't know if I feel like transcribing it, but I've reading "The Devil in Dover" (by Lauri Lebo), an account of the 2005 Intelligent Design / Evolution case of national headlines (which happens to have been tried right here in Harrisburg, about 5 minutes from my apartment), and a whole page of the testimony concerning Michael Behe (ID proponent, Lehigh University) dealt exactly with the notion of what a "theory" versus a "hypothesis" is and what the implications of softening definitions are.



Dude, I don't answer you because you're not providing a coherent discussion of theory and science here; you can't even say the default color of this forum scheme is blue as a fact (how can you be sure?) by your definition .... but you can make a very strong case for it. Same with evolution.

The courts have already battled this out with their expert witnesses time and again, the most recent example being here, where the court is very clear about what was shown to be true in the proceedings.

Behe tried to redefine "theory" like you have, which makes it sound like more of a hypothesis. His proposed definition was "a proposed explanation which focuses or points to physical, observable data and logical inferences." In the court proceeding, Behe was forced to admit that, by using definition, even astrology could be considered a "theory" ... and the judged noted as much in his verdict.

The NAS definition of a "theory" is a "well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world that can incorporate facts, laws, inferences, and tested hypotheses."

Evolution is falsifiable, most of these ideas you bring up or not... but you would equate them as the same? It's nowhere close. There is no better falsifiable explanation for the development of life than evolution, at this current time... and even the ID proponents had to admit as much, and openly admitted in court that their creation science involved an essential faith to make the leap. Even if evolution isn't "it" down to every detail and has flaws, it explains a great deal coherent, has been tested, and is the best theory out there right now.


:wtf: Another essay,:17425:when will you learn?

YES OR NO IS EVOLUTION A FACT?

YES OR NO IS ID A FACT? I can see you answering this and ignoring the evolution question, LOL!

Reply with ONE WORD. NO ESSAY! there is seriously something wrong with you. :doh:

I give up if you give me another essay, I can't have a real conversation with people who can't decide anything at all.
 

Totenkindly

@.~*virinaĉo*~.@
Joined
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50,243
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BELF
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sx/sp
:wtf: Another essay,:17425:when will you learn?

YES OR NO IS EVOLUTION A FACT?

YES OR NO IS ID A FACT? I can see you answering this and ignoring the evolution question, LOL!

Reply with ONE WORD. NO ESSAY! there is seriously something wrong with you. :doh:

I give up if you give me another essay, I can't have a real conversation with people who can't decide anything at all.


Yes. <--forced procrustean lopping occuring, of course

(Unlike the junk you're posting in this thread. Practicing critical thinking skills and showing some actual knowledge on the topic on YOUR part would be extremely helpful right now. Maybe now that I've ante'ed you, you'd like to return the favor?)
 

onemoretime

Dreaming the life
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This is not a provable fact.

Dimethyltryptamine certainly is one of the neurochemicals involved with dreaming. The characterization of its activity in the brain as "abuse", on the other hand, is a pretty far stretch. How can you abuse an endogenous chemical?
 

INTJ123

HAHHAHHAH!
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Messages
777
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Yes. <--forced procrustean lopping occuring, of course

(Unlike the junk you're posting in this thread. Practicing critical thinking skills and showing some actual knowledge on the topic on YOUR part would be extremely helpful right now. Maybe now that I've ante'ed you, you'd like to return the favor?)

Now if evolution is a fact then you should be able to prove to me beyond a reasonable doubt that it is true. Unless you think I'm being unreasonable.

Evolution as theory and fact - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Now I see why he asked me about gravity, you guys and wiki lol! My reason for answering no is because I know our understanding of mass itself is incomplete, therefor any theory derived from the concept of mass is not sound including gravity. We know there is a force there that we call gravity, but we don't know all the details about what causes it. Magnetic fields could play a role.

This is ridiculous though, theory and a fact? are you serious?


Let me ask you something, do you think that having impacted wisdom teeth is part of our evolutionary process?
 

The Decline

(☞゚∀゚)☞
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?
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Dimethyltryptamine certainly is one of the neurochemicals involved with dreaming. The characterization of its activity in the brain as "abuse", on the other hand, is a pretty far stretch. How can you abuse an endogenous chemical?

Sure, there is a link between the pineal gland, other endogenously produced chemicals (melatonin, serotonin, etc), dream-states and DMT... but no, it's not provable. Research has not proven when or how DMT is endogenously produced. I implore you to prove me otherwise, though.
 

INTJ123

HAHHAHHAH!
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Dimethyltryptamine certainly is one of the neurochemicals involved with dreaming. The characterization of its activity in the brain as "abuse", on the other hand, is a pretty far stretch. How can you abuse an endogenous chemical?

It's a joke, considering it's illegal yet everyone in the entire world uses it every day.
 

onemoretime

Dreaming the life
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Now if evolution is a fact then you should be able to prove to me beyond a reasonable doubt that it is true. Unless you think I'm being unreasonable.

Evolution as theory and fact - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Now I see why he asked me about gravity, you guys and wiki lol! My reason for answering no is because I know our understanding of mass itself is incomplete, therefor any theory derived from the concept of mass is not sound including gravity. We know there is a force there that we call gravity, but we don't know all the details about what causes it. Magnetic fields could play a role.

This is ridiculous though, theory and a fact? are you serious?


Let me ask you something, do you think that having impacted wisdom teeth is part of our evolutionary process?

There's a difference between reasonable doubt and any doubt. We can make predictions based on the modern understanding of evolution through genetic variation and natural selection, particularly in microbial life as they respond to environmental pressures, such as antibiotics. As far as science is concerned, that's evidence beyond a reasonable doubt. It can still be questioned, as refinement of existing understanding is one of the highlights of the scientific method.

I asked about gravity because it's a fact (as we observe it), and yet we still can't come up with an idea of what causes gravity, only describe its effects. It's not connected to the electromagnetic force at all, so disabuse yourself of that notion. EM force works strongly over a medium distance, while gravity works very weakly over an infinite distance. We still don't know why that is, even though we observe it.

Meanwhile, we know what causes evolution (genetic variation being perpetuated through natural selection). We've seen it in action (microbes, selection of black moths on polluted trees over white moths on clean trees). It's much harder science than gravity is, just spread out over a longer period of time.

We absolutely know what mass is. We have the math. The math works. Therefore, we know what mass is. It's energy divided by the square of the speed of light. We know that mass and energy are the same. What we don't know is the relationship between mass on the relativistic scale and on the quantum scale. That doesn't mean we don't know what mass is. Mathematics does not lie.

Once again, you confuse the lay definition of theory with the scientific definition. A hypothesis is a guess (what you'd call a "theory"). A theory is an observation with a hell of a lot of evidence backing it up (we used the "theory" of relativity to build atomic bombs). A law is an older term for what would be referred to as theory nowadays. For example, Newton's laws of mechanics are not exactly true, but they're still called laws.

Of course impacted wisdom teeth are part of our evolution; evolution doesn't have a teleology. There are simply variations (shorter jaws), and if the impact aids survival (allowing language and permitting expansion of the cranial cavity), it will be passed on, even if there are downsides (inability to fit all teeth into one's jaw), as long as the negative impact doesn't affect the reproductive capacity of the one carrying the gene(s).

Evolution by genetic variation through natural selection is fact. Deal with it.
 

onemoretime

Dreaming the life
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Sure, there is a link between the pineal gland, other endogenously produced chemicals (melatonin, serotonin, etc), dream-states and DMT... but no, it's not provable. Research has not proven when or how DMT is endogenously produced. I implore you to prove me otherwise, though.

The Hallucinogen N,N-Dimethyltryptamine (DMT) Is an Endogenous Sigma-1 Receptor Regulator -- Fontanilla et al. 323 (5916): 934 -- Science

DMT is a metabolite of tryptophan, an amino acid, much as serotonin (5-hydroxytryptamine) is. It binds to the sigma-1 receptor.
 

INTJ123

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There's a difference between reasonable doubt and any doubt. We can make predictions based on the modern understanding of evolution through genetic variation and natural selection, particularly in microbial life as they respond to environmental pressures, such as antibiotics. As far as science is concerned, that's evidence beyond a reasonable doubt. It can still be questioned, as refinement of existing understanding is one of the highlights of the scientific method.

I asked about gravity because it's a fact (as we observe it), and yet we still can't come up with an idea of what causes gravity, only describe its effects. It's not connected to the electromagnetic force at all, so disabuse yourself of that notion. EM force works strongly over a medium distance, while gravity works very weakly over an infinite distance. We still don't know why that is, even though we observe it.

Meanwhile, we know what causes evolution (genetic variation being perpetuated through natural selection). We've seen it in action (microbes, selection of black moths on polluted trees over white moths on clean trees). It's much harder science than gravity is, just spread out over a longer period of time.

We absolutely know what mass is. We have the math. The math works. Therefore, we know what mass is. It's energy divided by the square of the speed of light. We know that mass and energy are the same. What we don't know is the relationship between mass on the relativistic scale and on the quantum scale. That doesn't mean we don't know what mass is. Mathematics does not lie.

Once again, you confuse the lay definition of theory with the scientific definition. A hypothesis is a guess (what you'd call a "theory"). A theory is an observation with a hell of a lot of evidence backing it up (we used the "theory" of relativity to build atomic bombs). A law is an older term for what would be referred to as theory nowadays. For example, Newton's laws of mechanics are not exactly true, but they're still called laws.

Of course impacted wisdom teeth are part of our evolution; evolution doesn't have a teleology. There are simply variations (shorter jaws), and if the impact aids survival (allowing language and permitting expansion of the cranial cavity), it will be passed on, even if there are downsides (inability to fit all teeth into one's jaw), as long as the negative impact doesn't affect the reproductive capacity of the one carrying the gene(s).

Evolution by genetic variation through natural selection is fact. Deal with it.

And at what point in history did we start having impacted wisdom teeth due to evolution? My parents didn't seem to have a problem. Would you say it's a rather recent change?
 

onemoretime

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And at what point in history did we start having impacted wisdom teeth due to evolution? My parents didn't seem to have a problem. Would you say it's a rather recent change?

It was a prehistoric development. We can tell this from consistent bone samples.

Do you know if your parents had a problem with impacted wisdom teeth, or did they just not discuss it with you? It's a fairly mundane topic.
 

INTJ123

HAHHAHHAH!
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It was a prehistoric development. We can tell this from consistent bone samples.

Do you know if your parents had a problem with impacted wisdom teeth, or did they just not discuss it with you? It's a fairly mundane topic.

Umm yes I've talked to them about it. Mother has all of them in her mouth still all grown out perfectly straight. Father they never came out at all and never caused a problem.

Prehistoric? Give me a date range here.
 

INTJ123

HAHHAHHAH!
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Furthermore, I have heard of mummies in Egypt having impacted wisdom teeth. This fact, added with the fact that many people to this very moment don't need to pull their wisdom teeth, totally puts a big hole in your assertion that our jaws have evolved to accomodate space for our larger brains and lingual skills. And I'm supposed to accept this as fact?
 

Hoffman

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The first clarification I'd like to make here is that while a strictly metaphysical view of God is indeed unfalsifiable, a Biblical perspective is most certainly falsifiable. That is, through literal interpretation, the metaphysical account given in Genesis states that the world was created around 6,000 years ago, and furthermore there was a flood around 4,200 years ago. If one can prove that the universe has been around for longer than that (many of our scientific interpretations suggest so), then you've essentially falsified the Biblical account. However, if one choose not to take the Genesis account literally, then we've opened up a can of worms regarding Biblical interpretation... let's not go there.

Currently, I suspend belief in evolution theory, as it seems to lack sufficient evidence to support its core belief.

We have no way of proving so much as the possibility of living material arising out of inorganic matter. To the extent of my awareness, the best laboratory tests with regards have brought to life... a few amino acids. This comes nowhere close to giving credence to an evolutionary origin of life. You'd need a couple dozen more of the correct amino acids to have the necessary ingredients for protein synthesis within a unicellular organism. Still, this gives no explanation for how the unicellular organism itself emerged.

Consider the extraordinary amount of hurdles that follow after this. How does one explain the emergence of the genetic code? The transition from invertibrate to vertibrate? The transition from asexual to sexual reproduction? For that matter, aren't we already making key assumptions to support this idea? A simple example is in regards to the sun- it would've had to stay in a very similar state for millions and millions of years in order to maintain a hospitable environment for the evolution of life on Earth.

The point should already be clear to any rational thinking individual, the point I think INTJ123 has been trying to make. There is nothing wrong with believing in evolution theory, but understand that it is simply that- a belief, a faith based assumption, which in this characteristic is no different from religion. The theory is unsubstantiated, plain and simple. I do think we should continue to explore the possibility of the theory; stay true to the scientific method. However, we should not be indoctrinating children (a state of mind all too influential) toward this belief system, as it is not factual. Furthermore, through logical implication, it destroys the faith of many individuals- this, mind you, is what tends to frustrate the creationists most.

Somebody, please show me some evidence that supports evolution theory. Fossil record? Alright then, but first let's discuss radiometric dating, and its inherent assumptions that potentially disavow the entire process. Mutations and genetic drift? Evidence for variation within a species, not speciation. I'm serious, show me some evidence. Granted, I'm not an expert. However, I have been spending copious amounts of time discerning the argument from both sides, and after careful consideration, I remain unconvinced. I simply wish to know the truth.

What's interesting is that, hypothetically and momentarily, imagine the Biblical account of the flood to be true- an account, for the record, which has dozens of similar occurrences through out multiple, unrelated cultures around the world (I'll site if necessary, though I'd really prefer not to due to laziness, please do your own research if you're curious). Now consider the supposed transitional fossils we find of twelve foot neanderthals. Under this interpretation, these were not neanderthals; they were humans from a pre-flood world. Under pre-flood atmospheric conditions, the air we were breathing would've been oxygen saturated and of higher pressure- conditions which have been scientifically proven to cause organisms to grow much larger than they would otherwise.

But of course, it's not scientific to use a creationist explanation to interpret evidence, as the creationist relies on the metaphysical, which is inherently unscientific due to its unfalsifiability.

If I may momentarily muse: the first law of thermodynamics shows that matter is neither created nor destroyed, simply changed- this implies that, assuming a closed system (which allows for these laws to hold true), there must have been an external source that created our universe. Additionally, the second law, regarding entropy (yes I'm understating, but the implications hold true), would imply that even if there was an oscillatory process of big bang >> big crunch >> big bang, the closed system would not be able to continue this process infinitely due to dispersal of energy. This means there was also a beginning to the universe. Whether you want to use multiverse, intelligent designer, or any other theory to explain this is your decision.

My issue is that the Big Bang is also written in textbooks made for children, and this is clearly metaphysical in nature. Given this hypocrisy, I don't see any reason why intelligent design should not also be allowed to be taught in schools, but that's just my opinion.

Consider the implications on behavior with regards to evolution versus creationism (in this case, Christianity). Evolution suggests a state of moral relativism, with which the logical ad absurdum conclusion is that anybody can kill anybody with no lasting consequence- that is to say, if you were caught you may be punished by death, but even so. This might seem excessive, but I would argue that we've witnessed social darwinism in practice, Hitler is unfortunately a fine example. Christianity, on the other hand, suggests a constant state of judgment for your actions, as at the end of your life, you will be held accountable. It gives a more persuasive reason to act righteously outside of satiating personal ego in a morally relativistic world.

Err, I'm growing weary. Seriously, bring some evidence to the table that we can discuss. Let's see where this topic goes. Take care everyone!
 
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