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  1. #161
    Senior Member Snow Turtle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mhina View Post
    To our knowledge, Emoto's claims have never been independently tested by a reputable group nor been subjected to double blind testing: the standard procedure for eliminating experimenter bias. Double blind tests aside, there's not even an indication that any of the data points have been repeated. There's also no evidence that the results are uniform within the same water drop. It's unclear whether the photographed crystals were the only structure present or were part of some larger pattern. The James Randi Educational Foundation has offered a $1,000,000 prize to Dr. Emoto if his data can pass a double blind test.5 Alas, the mere thought of an evil the size of a million bucks would probably taint even the purest of water. If only we could be so tainted."

    are you ever going to pick up that prize money?
    Double blind testing has be done, however whether it's reputable is another matter considering that people involved in this field would be listed as paranormal scientist.

    Quote Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot View Post
    Oh, sorry. I did get your PM earlier, but you didn't give your email address, and I only have the paper in PDF format (the private messaging system on Steve's forum doesn't allow me to upload PDF files).

    Anyway, I've now printed out the paper and here are the scanned images:


    IMG_0001.jpg (image)
    IMG_0002.jpg (image)
    IMG_0003.jpg (image)
    IMG_0004.jpg (image)

    Well, Mrs Cogan, I don't think I will be discussing with you or responding to your comments any further in this thread. I don't mean to be rude - it's just that our respective belief systems on reality etc are just too far apart for engagement, so we would just be wasting each other's time. Whatever meaningful discussion we could have, we've probably already had.

    (And I do believe that for many readers, this has actually turned out to be a very interesting thread - certainly you contributed to that).
    A triple blind test has actually been performed as well.
    Entangled Minds: Water crystal replication study

    As for James Randi... There are plenty of criticism on him and his experiments however it would make sense if he was honest about the entire thing, it would make sense that someone would claim the money.

  2. #162
    Senior Member Heart&Brain's Avatar
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    Just out of anthropological interest: are all of you guys Americans?
    (especially the OP and the few others attacking the theory of evolution)

    Isn't this whole discussion, the fact that it keeps generating posts, a rather American phenomenon?

    This discussion is just too weird for words. (Btw. I really appreciate the efforts of you NT's patiently countering the recognisably prepacked ID-propaganda with careful step-by-step arguments and systematic scientific knowledge. It's heroic of you to bother at all.
    When I suspect you could be American too, it's because I sense 1) that it's not the first time you hear these weird caricatures of rational arguments 2) you are used to having to survive in a cultural environment where you are actually expected to take such discussions serious.

    PS. I live in Northern Europe and the last couple of years I've been regularly asked to debate against religious convictions (especially debating their ethics, since I'm a philosopher, not a natural scientist) in different mass media.

    This means I know a lot of "our" religionists' ideas about this and that. Still I honestly can't think of any religious group or person (at least nobody able to complete primary school, not to speak about taking a university degree in Theology) in these parts of the world who would take the kind of belief expressed in the OP serious. They would accuse this whole thread of being an atheist scam to make religion seem stupid.

    But I'm not so sure it's a scam. Thus my guess: is it American?

    Thus the anthropological hypothesis: are you guys Americans?

  3. #163
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heart&Brain View Post
    Just out of anthropological interest: are all of you guys Americans?
    (especially the OP and the few others attacking the theory of evolution)

    Isn't this whole discussion, the fact that it keeps generating posts, a rather American phenomenon?

    This discussion is just too weird for words. (Btw. I really appreciate the efforts of you NT's patiently countering the recognisably prepacked ID-propaganda with careful step-by-step arguments and systematic scientific knowledge. It's heroic of you to bother at all.
    When I suspect you could be American too, it's because I sense 1) that it's not the first time you hear these weird caricatures of rational arguments 2) you are used to having to survive in a cultural environment where you are actually expected to take such discussions serious.

    PS. I live in Northern Europe and the last couple of years I've been regularly asked to debate against religious convictions (especially debating their ethics, since I'm a philosopher, not a natural scientist) in different mass media.

    This means I know a lot of "our" religionists' ideas about this and that. Still I honestly can't think of any religious group or person (at least nobody able to complete primary school, not to speak about taking a university degree in Theology) in these parts of the world who would take the kind of belief expressed in the OP serious. They would accuse this whole thread of being an atheist scam to make religion seem stupid.

    But I'm not so sure it's a scam. Thus my guess: is it American?

    Thus the anthropological hypothesis: are you guys Americans?
    Yep.

  4. #164
    Senior Member Valuable_Money's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heart&Brain View Post
    Just out of anthropological interest: are all of you guys Americans?
    (especially the OP and the few others attacking the theory of evolution)

    Isn't this whole discussion, the fact that it keeps generating posts, a rather American phenomenon?

    This discussion is just too weird for words. (Btw. I really appreciate the efforts of you NT's patiently countering the recognisably prepacked ID-propaganda with careful step-by-step arguments and systematic scientific knowledge. It's heroic of you to bother at all.
    When I suspect you could be American too, it's because I sense 1) that it's not the first time you hear these weird caricatures of rational arguments 2) you are used to having to survive in a cultural environment where you are actually expected to take such discussions serious.

    PS. I live in Northern Europe and the last couple of years I've been regularly asked to debate against religious convictions (especially debating their ethics, since I'm a philosopher, not a natural scientist) in different mass media.

    This means I know a lot of "our" religionists' ideas about this and that. Still I honestly can't think of any religious group or person (at least nobody able to complete primary school, not to speak about taking a university degree in Theology) in these parts of the world who would take the kind of belief expressed in the OP serious. They would accuse this whole thread of being an atheist scam to make religion seem stupid.

    But I'm not so sure it's a scam. Thus my guess: is it American?

    Thus the anthropological hypothesis: are you guys Americans?
    remember when this thread started and I said the OP was a troll? and when I accused him of it he just called me names and everyone just said "NAWWWWWWW"
    Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh? wgah'nagl fhtagn

  5. #165
    (☞゚∀゚)☞ The Decline's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heart&Brain View Post
    But I'm not so sure it's a scam. Thus my guess: is it American?

    Thus the anthropological hypothesis: are you guys Americans?
    This is why I'm uneasy with my national identity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Valuable_Money View Post
    remember when this thread started and I said the OP was a troll? and when I accused him of it he just called me names and everyone just said "NAWWWWWWW"
    I still don't buy this. It's a clever ploy if one were capable of it, but I honestly think that OP is silly/stupid enough to believe his crazy infatuations.
    "Stop it, you fuck. Give him some butter."
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    = Ne > Ni > Fi > Te > Se > Fe > Si INTP (I/PNT) 5w4

  6. #166
    Senior Member Valuable_Money's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Decline View Post
    This is why I'm uneasy with my national identity.



    I still don't buy this. It's a clever ploy if one were capable of it, but I honestly think that OP is silly/stupid enough to believe his crazy infatuations.
    Clever? Hes regurgitated propoganda and called people names, also hes avoided questions.


    EDIT: Heres how he is doing this. 1) someone posts a point relating to evolution or somthing. 2)check creationist websites 3)copy 4)paste 5)if step 2 fails resort to name calling and dodge the question.


    Really this just proves my point that he would of posted it in philosophy if he wanted real discussion, althought from a trolling perspective it is pretty ingeniuse. People have a tendancy to just accept negative facts about things or people they dont like. People think "creationists are idiots" so when they see this guy posting this stuff people dont even question it. In most other contexts he would of been recognized as a troll but remember hes a creationist and this forum is full of atheists so hes obviously an idiot just like an atheist in a forum full of creationists would be an idiot. INfact hes such an idiot he didnt even think to post this in the appropriate forum
    Philosophy and Spirituality - Typology Central


    When I confronted him about that he just resorted to normal question dodgeing tactics, the only reason he would avoid such an innocent question was if it revealed his nature as a troll. He posted this in a forum full of atheists instead of the apropriate one because he is trying to make atheists mad. I think Ive mad several posts in the past diseccting his behaviour and statements but really thats all the evidence you need.
    Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh? wgah'nagl fhtagn

  7. #167
    (☞゚∀゚)☞ The Decline's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valuable_Money View Post
    Clever? Hes regurgitated propoganda and called people names, also hes avoided questions.
    You misunderstand me, I was contesting the idea that he's a troll. I think he's just ignorant, and not capable of this high-level trolling. And suppose that he is a troll... why come here?
    "Stop it, you fuck. Give him some butter."
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  8. #168
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rixonomic View Post
    -My life in the box-
    I have been in the box all my life.

    I always liked the box.

    Then one day I stepped out of the box.

    Now I'm looking at the box from the outside, and I see there might be some problems with it.

    But I can't seem to get anyone in the box to step out and take a look with me. They're all convinced it's fine, and there's no reason to leave.
    Heh. That's how I feel about my life too.

    Except I guess I was heading in the opposite direction as you.

    Funny how specifics can be so different, yet the generalities can still be just the same.

    Quote Originally Posted by Heart&Brain View Post
    Just out of anthropological interest: are all of you guys Americans?
    (especially the OP and the few others attacking the theory of evolution)

    Isn't this whole discussion, the fact that it keeps generating posts, a rather American phenomenon?
    Yeah, that's my impression of it too.

    I was steeped in this stuff [i.e., religious attacks on science] from an early age and remember being shocked at the surprise of my non-American friends when they said, "Wow, you guys still argue about this? Why is there even an issue here? Here's what we know of the facts..."

    It blew my mind to realize how steeped our science and "secular pursuits" are in religion here, and it was an eye-opener to hear such a different perspective and have much of the information I had been taught recast in a different context. We don't even seem to realize it.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  9. #169
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I was steeped in this stuff [i.e., religious attacks on science] from an early age and remember being shocked at the surprise of my non-American friends when they said, "Wow, you guys still argue about this? Why is there even an issue here? Here's what we know of the facts..."

    It blew my mind to realize how steeped our science and "secular pursuits" are in religion here, and it was an eye-opener to hear such a different perspective and have much of the information I had been taught recast in a different context. We don't even seem to realize it.
    I think a lot of it comes from the much different nature of American religion compared to its counterparts in Europe. Most of the iterations here are very populist in origin, trusting the local wisdom of its adherents over the declarations of elites who don't understand them. This is much different than in most other developed countries, where the Church was intimately intertwined with the state, and in many ways was completely disconnected from the people as a whole.

    Dissent from the mandates of an oppressor, particularly when they only require performance of certain rituals in order to stay in good standing, is much easier than contradicting the heartfelt beliefs of loved ones. I think this helps explain how the split seems to often coincide in this country with adherents of older, established religions (Roman Catholicism, Episcopalianism) differing from newer, more populist religions (Southern Baptist Convention, Mormonism).

    It also doesn't hurt that religiosity was emphasized as a point of difference between the US and the Soviet Union during the Cold War.

  10. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heart&Brain View Post
    Just out of anthropological interest: are all of you guys Americans?
    (especially the OP and the few others attacking the theory of evolution)

    Isn't this whole discussion, the fact that it keeps generating posts, a rather American phenomenon?

    This discussion is just too weird for words. (Btw. I really appreciate the efforts of you NT's patiently countering the recognisably prepacked ID-propaganda with careful step-by-step arguments and systematic scientific knowledge. It's heroic of you to bother at all.
    When I suspect you could be American too, it's because I sense 1) that it's not the first time you hear these weird caricatures of rational arguments 2) you are used to having to survive in a cultural environment where you are actually expected to take such discussions serious.

    PS. I live in Northern Europe and the last couple of years I've been regularly asked to debate against religious convictions (especially debating their ethics, since I'm a philosopher, not a natural scientist) in different mass media.

    This means I know a lot of "our" religionists' ideas about this and that. Still I honestly can't think of any religious group or person (at least nobody able to complete primary school, not to speak about taking a university degree in Theology) in these parts of the world who would take the kind of belief expressed in the OP serious. They would accuse this whole thread of being an atheist scam to make religion seem stupid.

    But I'm not so sure it's a scam. Thus my guess: is it American?

    Thus the anthropological hypothesis: are you guys Americans?
    Wow! This makes me feel sheltered and somewhat ignorant but I assumed this sort of nonsense was debated throughout the world. It is good to hear that it is isolated to over here and that the entire world is not off it's rocker. Sort of makes me want to move though.

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