[INTP] Rant on INTPs

[cafe]

Still, analysis would make it abundantly clear that it is time to act. So he is not analysing (or he is severly confused).

Clinical desicion making is an easy habit to pick up. Make a decision first then analyse, then pick again.... If at anytime you have to act, act on the last decision made. At least that's how I do it.

It may be easy (I think it is reasonably so) but a lot of INTPs seem to have trouble with it. I don't really care, you know, as long as I don't go crashing over the waterfall or stay sitting on the railroad tracks when the train comes.

 

[SolitaryWalker]

Still, analysis would make it abundantly clear that it is time to act. So he is not analysing (or he is severly confused).

Clinical desicion making is an easy habit to pick up. Make a decision first then analyse, then pick again.... If at anytime you have to act, act on the last decision made. At least that's how I do it.

Yes, the Ti is always making decisions internally whilst Ne is collecting information. With the ENTPs the voice of Ti is less influential, so there is less of a struggle between the need to collect all information and need to be making decisions which leads to a very strange case of external indecisiveness.

 

[ygolo]

procrastination to refer to tasks that we are obligated to do. Ps tend to be more concerned with doing tasks that they want to do first and foremost, and because of such an intense focus on that, the obligatory tasks tend to be postponed.

Obligations are such nuicances. Do any types not avoid or postpone obligatory tasks? My favorite method of avoidance is automation. Hooray for automation I want all my obligations to be automatically met, with no effort or attention from me.

 

[cafe]

Obligations are such nuicances. Do any types not avoid or postpone obligatory tasks? My favorite method of avoidance is automation. Hooray for automation I want all my obligations to be automatically met, with no effort or attention from me.

That sounds a little like -- okay, a lot like -- heaven.

 

[SolitaryWalker]

Obligations are such nuicances. Do any types not avoid or postpone obligatory tasks? My favorite method of avoidance is automation. Hooray for automation I want all my obligations to be automatically met, with no effort or attention from me.

I'd argue that EJs (the stronger the extroverted Judgment, the more distinctly expressed the tendency will be), will be less likely to avoid obligations than Ps.

 

[ygolo]

It may be easy (I think it is reasonably so) but a lot of INTPs seem to have trouble with it. I don't really care, you know, as long as I don't go crashing over the waterfall or stay sitting on the railroad tracks when the train comes.

I am curious, are the waterfall and railroad tracks hyperbolic metaphors or do they accurately potray your situation. If it is the latter, I would have you husband checked out for depression. When things got that bad, it wasn't due to poor decision making on my part, I simply had not motivation or energy to do anything. (There was no analysis going on then either.)

 

[cafe]

I am curious, are the waterfall and railroad tracks hyperbolic metaphors or do they accurately potray your situation. If it is the latter, I would have you husband checked out for depression. When things got that bad, it wasn't due to poor decision making on my part, I simply had not motivation or energy to do anything. (There was no analysis going on then either.)

They have been pretty accurate portrayals in the past a couple of times. As I said, these are past situations. I'm sure depression was a factor, but that appears to be something not uncommon to INTPs. It didn't appear as if the analysis stopped, but that, in this situation, it was failing him. I don't know.

 

[SolitaryWalker]

They have been pretty accurate portrayals in the past a couple of times. As I said, these are past situations. I'm sure depression was a factor, but that appears to be something not uncommon to INTPs. It didn't appear as if the analysis stopped, but that, in this situation, it was failing him. I don't know.

Just to clarify this statement from the perspective of typology. In depression, our auxiliary function gets shut off, but our primary function will likely remain sound. Hence, the INTPs' analysis will fail not because Ti is malfunctioning, but because we dont have the Ne to collect sufficient information for analysis.

The INTP will have difficulty getting out of depression because, again the Ne, will not be available to the extent that is necessary in order to collect the information needed in order to avoid the turmoil the INTP is afflicted by.

 

[cafe]

Just to clarify this statement from the perspective of typology. In depression, our auxiliary function gets shut off, but our primary function will likely remain sound. Hence, the INTPs' analysis will fail not because Ti is malfunctioning, but because we dont have the Ne to collect sufficient information for analysis.

That would make sense.

 

[ygolo]

They have been pretty accurate portrayals in the past a couple of times. As I said, these are past situations. I'm sure depression was a factor, but that appears to be something not uncommon to INTPs. It didn't appear as if the analysis stopped, but that, in this situation, it was failing him. I don't know.

You are right. I should use different wording to clarify. In my case, the problem wasn't that analysis was failing, per say, the problem was I wasn't puting effort into it (and so my analysis failed).

This may be complicated to explain. It is simply impossible for me to stop analyzing. So in my case the analysis didn't stop when I was depressed (or when I procratinate due to fear). The problem was that I stopped directing my analysis. I stoped putting effort into it and simply went into automatic. There wasn't any effortful analysis anymore. Automatic analysis served me surprizingly well during my depression, but at it did "fail" far more often. I think of the "effort" as informing my analytical process (maily through observations and experiments) .

So, even though there was analysis going on (in the new way I'm using the word in this thread). There was no "analysis" going on (in the other sense).

Perhaps drawing from the enneagram :rolli: will help explain. It is the Type 5 dynamic. Fear of being Overwhelmed->Retreating->Being Overwhelmed->Fear of being overwhelmed
vs. Observe, Analyze experiment->Understand the world better->Desire to Understand the World better->Observe, Analyze, experiment....

The distraction case is still part of the healthy cycle, but needs fine tuning, while fear based delay needs encouragement to observe, analyse, experiment, not discouragement.

I hope that made sense.

 

[Totenkindly]

The INTP will have difficulty getting out of depression because, again the Ne, will not be available to the extent that is necessary in order to collect the information needed in order to avoid the turmoil the INTP is afflicted by.

For an INTP, usually the depression then becomes worse because the other introverted function (Si, the tertiary) is being used to buttress the bad thinking of the Ti. Instead of using Ne to shake things up and change the situation, Si just encourages the INTP to shrink into himself/herself and put up even more walls.

People really need a strong introverted/extroverted pair (and thus at the same time a perceiving/judging pair) in order to function in the most healthy way.

 

[reason]

Wow. INTPs sound awful, it's lucky I am an ESFJ, phew!

 

[htb]

Obligations are such nuisances. Do any types not avoid or postpone obligatory tasks?

I'd argue that EJs (the stronger the extroverted Judgment, the more distinctly expressed the tendency will be), will be less likely to avoid obligations than Ps.

For what it is worth, I am gratified when acting duly -- paying bills, or delivering or arriving when promised. Excepting offers traded in small talk, I will not commit unless I intend to carry out.

 

[The_Liquid_Laser]

Arrogance tends to be rare among healthy INTPs who have found a sense of higher purpose

Yes, this was a very thoroughly and profoundly thought out statement.

It seems you have put a lot of thorough and profound thought toward your arrogance.

 

[Totenkindly]

It seems you have put a lot of thorough and profound thought toward your arrogance.

He does get an A for Arroga.... I mean, an "A" for effort.

 

[SolitaryWalker]

It seems you have put a lot of thorough and profound thought toward your arrogance.

Pretty clear what we have going on here. If you found a higher purpose, you know you have nothing to be proud of because you're always longing for something that can not grasped in its entirety. For the INTP it is often the search for truth and for INFP, the true good.

Es are more likely to become arrogant, especially the EJs because they often see a clear-cut standard that needs to be met and and when they meet the standard better than others, they assume that they are better than them.

 

[The_Liquid_Laser]

Pretty clear what we have going on here. If you found a higher purpose, you know you have nothing to be proud of because you're always longing for something that can not grasped in its entirety. For the INTP it is often the search for truth and for INFP, the true good.

Es are more likely to become arrogant, especially the EJs because they often see a clear-cut standard that needs to be met and and when they meet the standard better than others, they assume that they are better than them.

Well if you want to clarify, then how do you define the term "higher purpose", and what would it look like for other types like the ESFJ for example?

 

[SolitaryWalker]

Well if you want to clarify, then how do you define the term "higher purpose", and what would it look like for other types like the ESFJ for example?

The most down to earth example of a higher purpose i can think of is doing something not for the sake of external rewards, but for the sake of finding an essence that underlies it.

So, for example a philosopher who has not found a higher purpose will study just so he can solve this or that problem in the world, or win this or that argument. One who has will be focused on the perennial search for truth. Solving problems and arguing will be means to the end of getting closer to truth.

For ESFJ, we will want a Feeling oriented higher purpose, they are on the path of the INFP rather than the INTP. When they have fully developed all of their functions their Fe will be bent inwards by Si-Ti and hopefully produce the Fi effect where they will strive to become as compassionate and sincere as possible.

I doubt we can expect this from an ESFJ, although that's definitely what I'd look for from them in the perfect world.

 

[The_Liquid_Laser]

The most down to earth example of a higher purpose i can think of is doing something not for the sake of external rewards, but for the sake of finding an essence that underlies it.

So, for example a philosopher who has not found a higher purpose will study just so he can solve this or that problem in the world, or win this or that argument. One who has will be focused on the perennial search for truth. Solving problems and arguing will be means to the end of getting closer to truth.

For ESFJ, we will want a Feeling oriented higher purpose, they are on the path of the INFP rather than the INTP. When they have fully developed all of their functions their Fe will be bent inwards by Si-Ti and hopefully produce the Fi effect where they will strive to become as compassionate and sincere as possible.

I doubt we can expect this from an ESFJ, although that's definitely what I'd look for from them in the perfect world.

So what you are saying is that in a perfect world everyone is either an INTP or INFP? How noble of you to include both types in your vision of a perfect world. I also love how you use the term "higher purpose" as opposed to something like "inner purpose" or "internally focused".

How foolish of me to think it arrogant to use the term "higher purpose" to refer to the natural inclinations of the INTP and INFP.

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

For ESFJ, we will want a Feeling oriented higher purpose, they are on the path of the INFP rather than the INTP. When they have fully developed all of their functions their Fe will be bent inwards by Si-Ti and hopefully produce the Fi effect where they will strive to become as compassionate and sincere as possible.

I doubt we can expect this from an ESFJ, although that's definitely what I'd look for from them in the perfect world.

Are you equating true compassion with Fi? Isn't there some potential danger in ascribing specific moral traits with personality functions? Fi is most certain of the internal structure of emotion and values, and can therefore be more likely to respond to external emotional scenarios with judgment, projection, and bias. It can be compassionate certainly, but i don't see how its compassionate ideal transcends any other. Its intensely subjective quality places it at risk for distorted perceptions. Inaccurate empathy can lead to sincere, but flawed compassion. Fi is just as capable of killing with kindness as any function, if not moreso. Si has some of these same preconceived notions about right and wrong. Put Si and Fi together as dominant and tertiary functions and you can have a highly motivated compassion, but one that can have very little to do with the individual or situation at hand. That's when you hope the Si-Fi or Fi-Si internal framework is in agreement with most needs in general, because it can have a great trouble adapting to new or divergent needs and scenarios with any kind of accurate empathy.