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Thread: Rant on INTPs

  1. #81
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by toonia View Post
    Are you equating true compassion with Fi? Isn't there some potential danger in ascribing specific moral traits with personality functions? Fi is most certain of the internal structure of emotion and values, and can therefore be more likely to respond to external emotional scenarios with judgment, projection, and bias. It can be compassionate certainly, but i don't see how its compassionate ideal transcends any other. Its intensely subjective quality places it at risk for distorted perceptions. Inaccurate empathy can lead to sincere, but flawed compassion. Fi is just as capable of killing with kindness as any function, if not moreso. Si has some of these same preconceived notions about right and wrong. Put Si and Fi together as dominant and tertiary functions and you can have a highly motivated compassion, but one that can have very little to do with the individual or situation at hand. That's when you hope the Si-Fi or Fi-Si internal framework is in agreement with most needs in general, because it can have a great trouble adapting to new or divergent needs and scenarios with any kind of accurate empathy.

    I am talking about the Feeling oriented higher/inner purpose. This is only possible with Fi, not Fe. There were no entailments of personal values to this statement, so none of what you mentioned applies.

    Such Fi behavior as you describe tends to stem from a lack of a higher purpose, this leads to self-apotheosis. A parallel could be drawn to a Ti not having found a higher purpose.
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  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Liquid_Laser View Post
    So what you are saying is that in a perfect world everyone is either an INTP or INFP? How noble of you to include both types in your vision of a perfect world. I also love how you use the term "higher purpose" as opposed to something like "inner purpose" or "internally focused".

    How foolish of me to think it arrogant to use the term "higher purpose" to refer to the natural inclinations of the INTP and INFP.
    In a perfect world everyone has achieved the higher purpose (Ti/Ne or Fi/Ne), but this doesn't mean that everyone is either INTP or INFP--has the natural defects that INPs tend to incur.
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  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    I am talking about the Feeling oriented higher/inner purpose. This is only possible with Fi, not Fe. There were no entailments of personal values to this statement, so none of what you mentioned applies.

    Such Fi behavior as you describe tends to stem from a lack of a higher purpose, this leads to self-apotheosis. A parallel could be drawn to a Ti not having found a higher purpose.
    I was thrown off by your use of the word compassion which implies acting upon a value in the external world. I still don't understand its role in your position regarding 'higher purpose' with INPs.

    Compare the following from typelogic.com
    Quote Originally Posted by INFJ
    Beneath the quiet exterior, INFJs hold deep convictions about the weightier matters of life. Those who are activists -- INFJs gravitate toward such a role -- are there for the cause, not for personal glory or political power.

    INFJs are champions of the oppressed and downtrodden. They often are found in the wake of an emergency, rescuing those who are in acute distress. INFJs may fantasize about getting revenge on those who victimize the defenseless. The concept of 'poetic justice' is appealing to the INFJ.
    Quote Originally Posted by INFP
    INFPs never seem to lose their sense of wonder. One might say they see life through rose-colored glasses. It's as though they live at the edge of a looking-glass world where mundane objects come to life, where flora and fauna take on near-human qualities.

    INFP children often exhibit this in a 'Calvin and Hobbes' fashion, switching from reality to fantasy and back again. With few exceptions, it is the NF child who readily develops imaginary playmates (as with Anne of Green Gables's "bookcase girlfriend"--her own reflection) and whose stuffed animals come to life like the Velveteen Rabbit and the Skin Horse:
    Quote Originally Posted by INTP
    INTPs are pensive, analytical folks. They may venture so deeply into thought as to seem detached, and often actually are oblivious to the world around them.

    Precise about their descriptions, INTPs will often correct others (or be sorely tempted to) if the shade of meaning is a bit off. While annoying to the less concise, this fine discrimination ability gives INTPs so inclined a natural advantage as, for example, grammarians and linguists. ..

    INTPs and Logic -- One of the tipoffs that a person is an INTP is her obsession with logical correctness. Errors are not often due to poor logic -- apparent faux pas in reasoning are usually a result of overlooking details or of incorrect context.
    Of these three the INFJ is described as being defined by a 'higher purpose' in terms more aligned with that phrase. "Higher purpose' can be redefined to mean something else, but until it is, then your argument doesn't fit with this information here. I can see that the INFP's and INTP's sense of purpose is not as concerned with impacting the external world. The INFP is more willing to distort their impression to fit their inner context, the rose-colored glasses. That is what i was describing in the earlier post. Of course these are all MBTI classifications. In Socionics the Ps and Js are flipped with INs, so that INFJ is actually an INFp and so forth.
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  4. #84
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by toonia View Post
    I was thrown off by your use of the word compassion which implies acting upon a value in the external world. I still don't understand its role in your position regarding 'higher purpose' with INPs.

    Compare the following from typelogic.com






    Of these three the INFJ is described as being defined by a 'higher purpose' in terms more aligned with that phrase. "Higher purpose' can be redefined to mean something else, but until it is, then your argument doesn't fit with this information here. I can see that the INFP's and INTP's sense of purpose is not as concerned with impacting the external world. The INFP is more willing to distort their impression to fit their inner context, the rose-colored glasses. That is what i was describing in the earlier post. Of course these are all MBTI classifications. In Socionics the Ps and Js are flipped with INs, so that INFJ is actually an INFp and so forth.
    INFJs are led by Introverted Intuition. Yes, there is introverted aim, here though not introverted judgment like we have with INPs.

    INJs follow an internal vision, INPs follow an internal ethic. That is the difference between having internal perception and internal judgment, internal aim and a clear-cut sense of internal direction.


    Compassion is more closely aligned with Fi than Fe because Introverted Feeling is sees feeling as an end itself, yet Extroverted Feeling tends to think that Feelings need to be applied to the external world. One could easily argue that Fi needs depth of feeling in order to be authentic, yet Fe does not, it only needs for feelings to be deep enough to reach this or that external agenda. Analogously to how Ti sees problem solving as an end in itself, whilst Te is more concerned with applying solutions to the real world.

    I am using higher purpose synonymously as an internal purpose, one that underlies a purpose that could be prescribed conventionally--by the external world.

    Introverted Intuition does not have a purpose, it only has a vision, it relies on extroverted judgment in order to give the vision a purpose. Therefore it does not have a higher purpose in the same sense that Introverted Judgment tends to.
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  5. #85
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    LL,

    I think this will settle our contention.

    I am not saying that everyone must be like INPs to find inner purpose, but merely learn to use introverted judgment well. An ESFJ would not be any less of an ESFJ had she become highly in tune with the introverted judgment. She'd still be external focused and concrete, yet would have an inner sense of direction to all of her external activities as opposed to be blown around hither and thither by influences that befall her.
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    Glowy Goopy Goodness The_Liquid_Laser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    LL,

    I think this will settle our contention.

    I am not saying that everyone must be like INPs to find inner purpose, but merely learn to use introverted judgment well. An ESFJ would not be any less of an ESFJ had she become highly in tune with the introverted judgment. She'd still be external focused and concrete, yet would have an inner sense of direction to all of her external activities as opposed to be blown around hither and thither by influences that befall her.
    No, that does not settle our contention, because the issue I have is that you consider introverted judgement to be superior functions to all of the others. I would never refer to inner purpose as a higher purpose. It is merely a different way of interacting with the world (or one's self in this case). The notion that a purpose derived from internal judgement is somehow higher than all of the others simply comes from type bigotry.

    Once you have decided that no type is intrinsically better than any of the others, then we will be able to see eye to eye.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Liquid_Laser View Post
    No, that does not settle our contention, because the issue I have is that you consider introverted judgement to be superior functions to all of the others. I would never refer to inner purpose as a higher purpose. It is merely a different way of interacting with the world (or one's self in this case). The notion that a purpose derived from internal judgement is somehow higher than all of the others simply comes from type bigotry.

    Once you have decided that no type is intrinsically better than any of the others, then we will be able to see eye to eye.
    Introverted purpose underlies external morality. Introverted Judgment is about how you can become the best person possible (much like what Socrates and Confucius taught), Extroverted Judgment is about how you can best contribute to society.


    Quote Originally Posted by Feeling oriented inner purpose View Post
    'Somewhere in the 1600s a man who could not see, sat down to write what he thought would be the greatest poem in human history. He said it would include, in his words, ''things yet unattempted in prose or rhyme.'' It is the view of the modern world that he achieved just that. His poem, the paradise Lost, is considered the greatest epic in human history. Few poems take on such an enormous theme as Paradise Lost, a theme that is not less than the origin of evil in itself. The man who took on this ambitious challenge, and created a classic in the process, is a man who led a life of immense struggle, loss and sacrifice. In a sense, John Milton's life was a search for paradise-a life in which the poet became the poem.
    Quote Originally Posted by Thinking-oriented inner purpose View Post

    Spinoza lived an uneventful life…Outwardly he was a poor lensgrinder supporting himself by his labors and indulging in much study. It has been the fashion to indulge in sentimentality over the man whom Unamo called the tragic, sorrowful Jew of Amsterdam, cut off from his own people and leading a lonely and frustrated life..,For under a rather drab exterior there burned the inward glory, the clam clear light of mind that has looked upon the very face of God, and in the knowledge and in the intellectual love of God found peace and blessedness.
    I wonder what character we'd have to represent a strong external purpose? Frugal, conscientious, wins approbation of powerful people, reliable.

    After this, could there still be any serious argument against the claim that the introverted purpose is closer in tune with the higher purpose than the extroverted?

    The purpose of Extroverted Morality is to bring order to society, the purpose of Introverted Morality is to perfect your nature. You tell me which of the two pertains to higher virtue.
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    Glowy Goopy Goodness The_Liquid_Laser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    Introverted purpose underlies external morality. Introverted Judgment is about how you can become the best person possible (much like what Socrates and Confucius taught), Extroverted Judgment is about how you can best contribute to society.
    It is arbitrary to say that one is better than the other. The notion that one is better comes from your own personal prefernce rather than by any objective means.

    I wonder what character we'd have to represent a strong external purpose?
    How about Winston Churchill as an extraverted thinker, and Dr. Martin Luther King as an extraverted feeler? Both can definitely be viewed as having a higher purpose. In fact I believe the public at large appreciates the contributions of these two individuals over Milton and Spinoza. But I prefer not to say that one way is better than other. The world needs both introverted judgers and extraverted judgers, so there is no objective way to say that one way is "higher" than the other.

    EDIT: In fact both types would be quite clueless if they didn't occasionally listen to the perceiving oriented types.
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    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Liquid_Laser View Post
    It is arbitrary to say that one is better than the other. The notion that one is better comes from your own personal prefernce rather than by any objective means.


    How about Winston Churchill as an extraverted thinker, and Dr. Martin Luther King as an extraverted feeler? Both can definitely be viewed as having a higher purpose. In fact I believe the public at large appreciates the contributions of these two individuals over Milton and Spinoza. But I prefer not to say that one way is better than other. The world needs both introverted judgers and extraverted judgers, so there is no objective way to say that one way is "higher" than the other.

    EDIT: In fact both types would be quite clueless if they didn't occasionally listen to the perceiving oriented types.

    I am thinking Winston Churchill was an ENTP. Not exactly an extroverted thinker, though close enoguh as I see your point.

    I dont think good is what the public appreciates, that notion is rather extroverted and is what opens the gate to moral relativism. I think good is an essence that dwells within one's character and could be recognized only from within. An external standard of what good is (whether or not public appreciates it) is not reliable because people are evil and stupid by their nature and are highly likely to wander into error attempting to figure out what good really is.

    INPs are more likely to know what is really good because good comes from the inside and they are the types who do the best job of applying judgment to the inner world. (Hence introverted judgment)

    People like Milton and Spinoza are the ones who came up with the best ideas to make the world a better place, extroverted thinkers were only implementors.

    Yes, the world needs both introverted judgers and extroverted judgers. One to come up with ideas, the other to carry them out to the external world? Hmm, aren't we kind of getting the notion here that the cook is to be thought to be more important than the waiter?
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    I am thinking Winston Churchill was an ENTP. Not exactly an extroverted thinker, though close enoguh as I see your point.

    I dont think good is what the public appreciates, that notion is rather extroverted and is what opens the gate to moral relativism. I think good is an essence that dwells within one's character and could be recognized only from within. An external standard of what good is (whether or not public appreciates it) is not reliable because people are evil and stupid by their nature and are highly likely to wander into error attempting to figure out what good really is.

    INPs are more likely to know what is really good because good comes from the inside and they are the types who do the best job of applying judgment to the inner world. (Hence introverted judgment)
    This conclusion is not logical. If you assume that people are evil and stupid by their nature then good cannot come from the inside. Making this assumption it is only logical to conclude that good must come from outside of man.

    People like Milton and Spinoza are the ones who came up with the best ideas to make the world a better place, extroverted thinkers were only implementors.

    Yes, the world needs both introverted judgers and extroverted judgers. One to come up with ideas, the other to carry them out to the external world? Hmm, aren't we kind of getting the notion here that the cook is to be thought to be more important than the waiter?
    I think you are saying that the planter is more important than the harvester. I would say they are both equally important.
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