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Thread: Rant on INTPs

  1. #51
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    FWIW, I find very little baffling. Only unprovoked and intentional cruelty truly ever baffles me. And there is little need to refer to the qualities of the person you are arguing against in order to prove your own argument. If your argument cannot stand on it's own it is a poor argument.
    I said ' as an extroverted judger you may find it baffling'. This is the quality of temperament, not quality of personality I am alluding to. The two can be very easily seperated. So, a more representative phraseology of the idea at hand would be 'this may be difficult for you to conceive of because it runs contrary to the way your mind tends to go about setting up standards'.

    A J person would be less likely to relate to how a P goes by inner standards in making decisions, though they still could gain an understanding of how Ps make decisions on the theoretical level. Thus, such a statement of how a J may be baffled only applies to their temperament and not to personality.

    Yes, INTPs dislike being unsuccessful by external standards, but that is no more than a minor bump on the road. It isn't going to undermine their overall sense of self-confidence.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

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  2. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    In this instance, I am making no stereotype. It's hard, unpleasant, and scary experience. As the spouse of an INTP encountered this more than once.

    My husband's need for autonomy put me in a position of not being able to make a decision without putting a relational wedge between us, but he also would be unable to cease analyzing and make a decision, hence circumstances would make the decision for us and often the results were unpleasant. That is not to say that all INTPs suffer from this, but some definitely do.

    My husband does not do this anymore, but it was a change wrought by bad experiences not by his nature.
    In my experience, delay comes from two sources, fear and distraction. I think it is fairly natural for INTPs to delay due to being distracted. But procrastination due to fear is something else entirely and I think it can afflict any MBTI type with high Neurosis.

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
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    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
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  3. #53
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    In my experience, delay comes from two sources, fear and distraction. I think it is fairly natural for INTPs to delay due to being distracted. But procrastination due to fear is something else entirely and I think it can afflict any MBTI type with high Neurosis.
    That would make sense. But the way those factors play out is in endless analysis and information gathering. The INTP is afraid they will make the wrong decision so they continue to seek more information. Or else they are so distracted by the gathering of information that they do not make the decision.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  4. #54
    Senior Member Sahara's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    That would make sense. But the way those factors play out is in endless analysis and information gathering. The INTP is afraid they will make the wrong decision so they continue to seek more information. Or else they are so distracted by the gathering of information that they do not make the decision.
    Is that just an INTP thing, or an INP thing, because I do that alot.
    "No one can be free of the chains that surround them"

  5. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    That would make sense. But the way those factors play out is in endless analysis and information gathering. The INTP is afraid they will make the wrong decision so they continue to seek more information. Or else they are so distracted by the gathering of information that they do not make the decision.
    I think it is very important to distinguish between the two cases.

    • In the case of distraction, a simple suggestion to act "clinically" can alleviate that problem. Weigh the cost of false negatives and false positives and simply pick a "default" decision before continuing analysis. Then a decision is already "made". It is simply a refinement, and one can pick the best choice (or current default) at the necessary time.
    • In the case of fear, what is going on is not analysis, it is vacilation (perhaps this is the same thing for other types, but not for INTPs, at least not the ones I know). There is likely very little analysis going on, rather the use of some feeling function. IMO, trying to force them to "stop analyzing" is the wrong thing in this case. In fact, the best advice may be to "start analyzing" (clinically).

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
    Robot Fusion
    "As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Wheeler
    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

  6. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sahara View Post
    Is that just an INTP thing, or an INP thing, because I do that alot.
    I think fear based procrastination is universal. The distraction thing may be for all Ps.

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
    Robot Fusion
    "As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Wheeler
    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

  7. #57
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    [*]In the case of fear, what is going on is not analysis, it is vacilation (perhaps this is the same thing for other types, but not for INTPs, at least not the ones I know). There is likely very little analysis going on, rather the use of some feeling function. IMO, trying to force them to "stop analyzing" is the wrong thing in this case. In fact, the best advice may be to "start analyzing" (clinically).
    Heh. It's one of those things where you are on the river in a canoe and you see the waterfall ahead and the other person will not let go of the oars and they cannot choose which side to paddle to. Who cares? Just please, for the love of God, choose a side or give me the paddles. We can figure the rest out after we aren't dead.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  8. #58
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sahara View Post
    Is that just an INTP thing, or an INP thing, because I do that alot.
    Yes, this is an INP thing.

    Introverted Judgment always makes judgments internally without any clear-cut external end--often is unable to satisfy its internal agenda, so it has to keep on moving to ensure that the inner agenda is satisfied. The only way to do this is to collect more information or keep on thinking. Hence, we are stuck here between either retreating deep in thought and shutting off our perceptions, or not making decisions at all because we simply dont have the right faculties, so then we just have to focus on collecting information and forget about making decisions.

    ENPs usually have an easier time maneuvering their way around the external environment to avoid making decisions altogether, and have an easier time adapting, so unlike the INPs their decisions dont need to be so rigorously in tune with their inner standard. ENPs are more likely to get paralyzed collecting informaiton just like INPs, though to their own downfall, tend not get stuck deep in thought attempting to make the best decisions possible. For this reason INPs tend to be better decision makers, they are more reflective (I), and have a stronger judging function.

    Procrastination is mostly a property of P. We usually use the term procrastination to refer to tasks that we are obligated to do. Ps tend to be more concerned with doing tasks that they want to do first and foremost, and because of such an intense focus on that, the obligatory tasks tend to be postponed.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

    “No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.”---Samuel Johnson

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  9. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    Heh. It's one of those things where you are on the river in a canoe and you see the waterfall ahead and the other person will not let go of the oars and they cannot choose which side to paddle to. Who cares? Just please, for the love of God, choose a side or give me the paddles. We can figure the rest out after we aren't dead.
    Still, analysis would make it abundantly clear that it is time to act. So he is not analysing (or he is severly confused).

    Clinical desicion making is an easy habit to pick up. Make a decision first then analyse, then pick again.... If at anytime you have to act, act on the last decision made. At least that's how I do it.

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
    Robot Fusion
    "As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Wheeler
    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

  10. #60
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    Are your brother and friends like what you expect?
    My brother (and sis who's ISTP) show signs of this behavior, but it's not bad. I don't expect any RL INTP to do this and if they did, I'd just avoid them as much as possible so no trouble would begin. I'd say my friend shows more of this than family (but of course that could be bias).

    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    This is not something that could cause dread in me, but is rather likely to insite anger (That is till I found out you were doing it just to get a reaction out of me, at which point, I would simply not react).
    I'd get a reaction Maybe not one I'd like, but a reaction nevertheless.

    And I must reiterate, I wouldn't do this, I'm not that malevolent. I don't want people to start getting upset.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
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