User Tag List

First 91718192021 Last

Results 181 to 190 of 231

Thread: Rant on INTPs

  1. #181
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    9w8
    Socionics
    INTj
    Posts
    4,463

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by GreyDeath View Post
    I dont think our interpretations of "dislike" were different. He took not liking to mean dislike/hate (I think he might have been exaggerating for effect) and I agree that dislike is close to hate, but "not liking" means that you do not like it; that there is no appeal in it for you, but also that there is not necessarily an aversion to it. If I were to say "I dont hate it" would that mean I love it or prefer it? No, it would mean an absence of hate/dislike. The same is true for "I dont like it" it doesnt mean that I hate it or dislike it, there is simply an absence of preference/like for it.

    I have nothing against dogs (in fact I do like them now), simply put, if someone asked me at that time in the past "do you like dogs?" I would have replied "no." Meaning I wouldn't qualify my feelings for dogs as warm and fuzzy. Similarly, if someone followed the question with, "then do you dislike/hate them?" I would also reply "no." When I say "I dont like" I mean, it does nothing for me, it is the truest form of neutrality...I mean meh.

    In short, a visual conception of all of this follows:

    hate-----dislike-----neutral-----like-----love

    hate and love are opposite at either end, like and dislike (antonyms) are opposite as well, only less extreme, and between them is neutrality...the absence of hate/love and dislike/like. When someone doesnt like something, they may very well also not dislike it (as is my case) and their feeling for it falls in the middle, neutral, an absence of positive or negative feelings for something.

    Make sense?
    INTP definition discussion

    All I'm thinking is that the correct term to display a lack of positive emotion would be ambivalence. Well actually that's more a balance of positive and negative but I'd find it difficult to believe that unless you passionately dislike dogs that you'd be blind to their positive aspects and hence ambivalence would be the closest word for accuracy.

    Also what came to mind is that if the other person is standing in the shade and you are standing in bright sunlight then to you the shade looks darker than it does to them where as to them the sunlight looks brighter than it does to you..

    Do you see where I'm seeing a difference?

    (This is usually why I list my type as 9 instead of INTP btw.. The obsession with balance over-rides the normal INTPness)
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  2. #182
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    9w8
    Socionics
    INTj
    Posts
    4,463

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    You got is all wrong, as usual.

    I was just suggesting you to calm down, to go easy. Passive-aggressive tactics don't require laughters, I guessed you would figure it out.
    The moment after you were criticized, you used your fiercest Ego defence mechanisms. And so did Tallulah.

    "We INTPs are the best.... blah blah blah... the best... blah blah blah... our nuances are so great no one is able to understand them... blah blah blah... the best... blah blah blah... we are so intelligent... blah blah blah...."

    How old are you?

    It's amazing how you INTPs can sometimes be so stubborn and arrogant. It's perplexing, frankly. Indeed, you lacked social nuance, context, and I'm sure 90% of mankind will agree with me, but you don't mind. You have such a high idea of your own ego you don't want to realize how flawed you are.

    I wanted to help you, you know. There was something rather obvious I tried to show you. I gained nothing in the process, it was pure benevolence.
    But you took it as a personal offense!!!

    Amazing!
    Next time, I'll let you ramble on your own delirium.
    If you can't accept foreign ideas, what others try to tell you, how can you improve?
    Is it logical to force the world to embrace your own system, rather than trying to adapt to how the world really is?
    Hmm this reminds me of someone pointing at a mirror and saying "You're wierd!!!".

    You know ENTPs aren't too hot at social context right? It's kind of beneficial that as a type ENTPs like arguments seeing as they are capable of causing soo many.. kinda self pleasing in that sense .. which is nice an efficient

    Oh and in reference to missing social context, what I usually find is that it's because they're looking a logical information and focusing on where the information takes them and the informations context. It takes a while before the idea of the context of who said it to sink in and even longer to get to why they may have said it.

    I guess that's why I find it relaxing talking to NTs irl. I know that if I follow the information I'm likely to be heading in the right direction. SFs are soo much more difficult to follow (Not that I'm too hot on STs either based on the missus.)
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  3. #183
    Rats off to ya! Mort Belfry's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    MBTI
    INTP
    Posts
    1,237

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Liquid_Laser View Post
    Critical of others without any encouragement to balance
    That's the best thing about us.
    Why do we always come here?

    I guess we'll never know.

    It's like a kind of torture,
    To have to watch this show.

  4. #184

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    You got is all wrong, as usual.

    I was just suggesting you to calm down, to go easy. Passive-aggressive tactics don't require laughters, I guessed you would figure it out.
    The moment after you were criticized, you used your fiercest Ego defence mechanisms. And so did Tallulah.

    "We INTPs are the best.... blah blah blah... the best... blah blah blah... our nuances are so great no one is able to understand them... blah blah blah... the best... blah blah blah... we are so intelligent... blah blah blah...."

    How old are you?

    It's amazing how you INTPs can sometimes be so stubborn and arrogant. It's perplexing, frankly. Indeed, you lacked social nuance, context, and I'm sure 90% of mankind will agree with me, but you don't mind. You have such a high idea of your own ego you don't want to realize how flawed you are.

    I wanted to help you, you know. There was something rather obvious I tried to show you. I gained nothing in the process, it was pure benevolence.
    But you took it as a personal offense!!!

    Amazing!
    Next time, I'll let you ramble on your own delirium.
    If you can't accept foreign ideas, what others try to tell you, how can you improve?
    Is it logical to force the world to embrace your own system, rather than trying to adapt to how the world really is?
    Blackmail, I wasn't mad, just annoyed that instead of continuing a discussion, you chose passive aggressive tactics, and I wasn't laughing, you posted the " " thing in response.

    I'm not following your attacks on me, at what point did I use a "ego defense mechanism" and state that INTPs are the best blah blah blah, etc?

    I wont pretend to understand ENTP or whatever type you are, but someone mentioned in a previous post that you like to be argumentative, maybe its your personality type, maybe its just you, but at this point Im not seeing discussion, all I'm seeing is baseless attacks against me. You claim Im being arrogant, stubborn, and defensive; that I "lacked social nuance and context," and that you wanted to show me something obvious, but at no point have you backed any of this up.

    I will accept foreign ideas if their rationality can be explained to me, Ive explained the rational of my view in detail, and you have not explained how Im wrong, you have simply stated that I am with no supporting evidence.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    Is it logical to force the world to embrace your own system, rather than trying to adapt to how the world really is?
    Tell that to Malcolm X, Martin Luther King, Gandhi, Rosa Parks, Russell Means, Cesar Chavez.

    I dont pretend that this discussion is anywhere at all close to the issues that these individuals faced and the social change they prompted, but you should still see my point. The answer to your question on whether is is logical depends severely on the context .


  5. #185

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    All I'm thinking is that the correct term to display a lack of positive emotion would be ambivalence. Well actually that's more a balance of positive and negative but I'd find it difficult to believe that unless you passionately dislike dogs that you'd be blind to their positive aspects and hence ambivalence would be the closest word for accuracy.
    Exactly, short version of my feelings for dogs would be ambivalent, not dislike. But since ambivalence is the lack of both positive or negative emotions for something, wouldn't stating that you do not like something imply that you are ambivalent towards it since you did not expressly state that you dislike it?

    How many people, in regular causal conversation, would state "I'm ambivalent towards dogs." ?

    Also, I think meh is the simplest expression of ambivalence.

  6. #186
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    FREE
    Enneagram
    594 sx/sp
    Socionics
    LII Ne
    Posts
    42,333

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by GreyDeath View Post
    ...I told him that I didn't like dogs (he's a dog person). A few months later, it came up in conversation with a coworker and he claimed that I "hated dogs." I tried to explain that its that I didn't like dogs, not that I hated dogs.
    Grrrr.... :steam:

    yeah. Pissy. That's a more blatant example, but yes.

    He said its the same thing, of course its not, but he wouldn't budge.
    Why can't they [care to] see the difference??? it's so obvious!

    Could me saying "I don't dislike dogs" mean the same as I love dogs?
    The first implies a neutral feeling -- an absence of negative but no presence of positive. The latter is glowingly positive.

    [And... I like my dogs medium-rare.]

    Quote Originally Posted by blackmail!
    Today's rants on INTPs:
    Rants on ENTPS:
    - Often feigns stupidity/confusion just to stir things up, when the answers are already clear.
    - Can't just stick firm with a position.
    - Likes dogs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tallulah View Post
    I agree with your original assessment--in the context of the discussion, the person should have pressed further if he thought you seriously hated dogs. I can certainly tell the difference between dislike and outright hate. If you didn't say "hate," he shouldn't have represented your viewpoint as such.
    I don't see the original mistake as bad. Misinterpretation happens, no biggie. It was the unwillingness to shift position once a correction was offered that annoys me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tallulah View Post
    I definitely find the negative easier than the positive. Even though it really is irrational, it FEELS more rational to think negatively, b/c you fool yourself into thinking you're planning for every eventuality. It makes me act less, though, b/c I feel like I've already thought things out and there's no point in trying.
    Quote Originally Posted by skip View Post
    It's not irrational. One of our strongest skills is critical analysis which includes finding flaws. That will become all you see if that's all you choose to focus on, however.
    QFT.

    Yes, the negativity is "critical thinking." It looks at the system and declares what is out of whack. There's usually not a reason to declare what is working, it's already been assumed as the norm; only the negatives need to be fixed to restore balance.

    But taken to an extreme, yes, it can lead to negative thinking and depression and feelings of futility, as well as social ostracism. Sometimes it helps if you step back and create a list of the positives, to stack up against the negatives.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    <in refer to Blackmail!'s comments>
    Hmm this reminds me of someone pointing at a mirror and saying "You're wierd!!!".

    You know ENTPs aren't too hot at social context right?
    I don't think I even took it that seriously. From over here, it just looks like he is mucking about trying to cause a stir.

    But maybe that is my personal misunderstanding of ENTPs. Do you think he's actually serious, or is he just trying to toy and tinker with our heads and sensibilities?

    Obie and I got into spats just like this, and I never really understood why -- it's not like we both can't follow what each other is saying.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  7. #187

    Default

    Jennifer,

    I cant tell for sure, but It seems that maybe your on the same page as me on this one.

    If thats the case, color me relieved that I'm not the only one that sees it this way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    The first implies a neutral feeling -- an absence of negative but no presence of positive. The latter is glowingly positive.
    And I'd say it works the other way round as well:
    "I dont like" implies a neutral feeling -- an absence of positive but no presence of negative. Hate is glowingly negative.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I don't see the original mistake as bad. Misinterpretation happens, no biggie. It was the unwillingness to shift position once a correction was offered that annoys me.
    Exactly, he held his position, claiming that he better knew what I meant and would not allow the possibility that his jump to that conclusion (hate) was unsupported and wrong.

  8. #188
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    9w8
    Socionics
    INTj
    Posts
    4,463

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by GreyDeath View Post
    Exactly, short version of my feelings for dogs would be ambivalent, not dislike. But since ambivalence is the lack of both positive or negative emotions for something, wouldn't stating that you do not like something imply that you are ambivalent towards it since you did not expressly state that you dislike it?

    How many people, in regular causal conversation, would state "I'm ambivalent towards dogs." ?

    Also, I think meh is the simplest expression of ambivalence.
    Oh dear Reminds me of Crocodile Dundee "That's not a knife..."

    GD, you said you disliked dogs. Like it or not dislike is used for disapproval, ie it's negative. Darkness never over-rides light but it is the absence of it. What you are effectively saying is that because you didn't expressly state that you were negative towards dogs that it should not be read as such.. isn't that kind of against the whole intuitive thing?

    Anyhow if people were truly accurate in speech they'd rarely utter a word.

    Perhaps if you had said two things, one slanted negatively and one positively, then you would be safer in having defined your position with more accuracy?

    (Note:- Most people won't hear the balance just the one they agree with or disagree with depending on their desires.)
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  9. #189
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    FREE
    Enneagram
    594 sx/sp
    Socionics
    LII Ne
    Posts
    42,333

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by GreyDeath View Post
    Exactly, he held his position, claiming that he better knew what I meant and would not allow the possibility that his jump to that conclusion (hate) was unsupported and wrong.
    Bolded -- yes, that's what sends me into a piss-tizzy.

    I listen when others edit what they say, and try to at least "test it" if not completely reincorporate their revisions. This crap when I clarify what I meant, and I'm told they know better than me what I'm thinking...?

    What on earth is that?

    Yes, I think I agreed (just skimming through) with the gist of all your recent posts... including your responses to Blackmail. i probably would have written them if I had been in your situation.

    Maybe a thread exploring the ENTP vs INTP dynamic would be good? It usually consists of the ENTP trying to spin the room around and attack things from all sides, rather like a hurricane, while the INTP sits in the middle and clings to the best "logical conclusion" they've discovered.

    Xander, you have a point in that communication works not by standardized rules but by adjusting for mistakes in understanding. GD's lexicon was very clear to him, the other guy just happened to work with a different rulebook. Fine -- depending on the rules, either could be "wrong." I happen to work like GD does, but I've learned that I need to adjust sometimes for other people just so my true intentions will be clear; they might not pick up on the nuances that are so purposeful to me.

    [This nuance thing is why INTPs make good linguists, btw. And, if skilled in the culinary arts, good linguini too.]

    However, GD tried to adjust his answer later, and his friend refused to accept it; even with thinking he was right, GD was still flexing and clarifying himself for the other guy's sake... and the other guy was the stick in the mud. Not him. THAT's what's annoying when dealing with unnuanced people.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  10. #190

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Bolded -- yes, that's what sends me into a piss-tizzy.

    I listen when others edit what they say, and try to at least "test it" if not completely reincorporate their revisions. This crap when I clarify what I meant, and I'm told they know better than me what I'm thinking...?

    What on earth is that?

    Yes, I think I agreed (just skimming through) with the gist of all your recent posts... including your responses to Blackmail. i probably would have written them if I had been in your situation.

    Maybe a thread exploring the ENTP vs INTP dynamic would be good? It usually consists of the ENTP trying to spin the room around and attack things from all sides, rather like a hurricane, while the INTP sits in the middle and clings to the best "logical conclusion" they've discovered.

    Xander, you have a point in that communication works not by standardized rules but by adjusting for mistakes in understanding. GD's lexicon was very clear to him, the other guy just happened to work with a different rulebook. Fine -- depending on the rules, either could be "wrong." I happen to work like GD does, but I've learned that I need to adjust sometimes for other people just so my true intentions will be clear; they might not pick up on the nuances that are so purposeful to me.

    [This nuance thing is why INTPs make good linguists, btw. And, if skilled in the culinary arts, good linguini too.]

    However, GD tried to adjust his answer later, and his friend refused to accept it; even with thinking he was right, GD was still flexing and clarifying himself for the other guy's sake... and the other guy was the stick in the mud. Not him. THAT's what's annoying when dealing with unnuanced people.
    Thank you! Thats exactly what I'm getting at!

    and

    Xander, Your right in your assessment if I had actually stated that I "dislike dogs", but I think you might be remembering wrong. I actually stated this:

    Quote Originally Posted by GreyDeath View Post
    I remember that a while back I was having the cats vs dogs discussion with a friend and I told him that I didn't like dogs (he's a dog person). A few months later, it came up in conversation with a coworker and he claimed that I "hated dogs." I tried to explain that its that I didn't like dogs, not that I hated dogs.
    "I don't like" is different from "I dislike"


    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    Anyhow if people were truly accurate in speech they'd rarely utter a word.
    Your also right that if we all worried about precision when we speak, no one would ever talk, but again, I refer to Jennifer's post:

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    However, GD tried to adjust his answer later, and his friend refused to accept it; even with thinking he was right, GD was still flexing and clarifying himself for the other guy's sake... and the other guy was the stick in the mud. Not him. THAT's what's annoying when dealing with unnuanced people.


    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    isn't that kind of against the whole intuitive thing?
    Im not sure if nuances go against the typical INTP approach. I would definitely say that I am not obsessed with nuances, but when I take in information from the external world intuitively (especially with people for some reason), I pick up on very subtle nuances of their speech, expressions, body language, etc. and can tell if they are putting me on, lying to me, and generally sense their true motives/emotions, etc. I think, for me personally, I pick up on some nuances intuitively.

    I remember a long time ago, I had just finished playing a show in downtown El Paso , and was hanging out outside of the club with my girlfriend and I saw a guy across the street, about 30-50 yards away, and I got a bad feeing about him just by looking at him, so I put my girlfriend behind me. The guy proceeded to walk right up to me and her (we were standing outside with about 15 other people, he ignored all of them), looked right through me at her, and start cussing and threatening her (he was crazy, pretty obvious once he started talking), and then walked off.

    I dont know what I picked up on, but I imagine there were subtle nuances to his walk, look, etc, that I caught intuitively. But then, who knows, maybe its something else.

Similar Threads

  1. [ENTP] Rant on ENTPs
    By Blackwater in forum The NT Rationale (ENTP, INTP, ENTJ, INTJ)
    Replies: 202
    Last Post: 09-30-2012, 10:20 AM
  2. [ENTJ] Rant on ENTJs
    By Maverick in forum The NT Rationale (ENTP, INTP, ENTJ, INTJ)
    Replies: 64
    Last Post: 12-29-2010, 02:50 PM
  3. [MBTItm] short rant on NFs
    By sakuraba in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 227
    Last Post: 11-29-2008, 10:38 PM
  4. A short rant on chivalry
    By Sniffles in forum Philosophy and Spirituality
    Replies: 20
    Last Post: 10-24-2008, 09:37 PM
  5. [INTJ] Rant on INTJs
    By Usehername in forum The NT Rationale (ENTP, INTP, ENTJ, INTJ)
    Replies: 39
    Last Post: 04-28-2008, 04:28 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO