[ENTP] Help comprehending angry ENTP

[Economica]

this post goes so well with your sig.

Readers, this exchange shall continue in our visitor messages!

 

[The_Liquid_Laser]

Readers, this exchange shall continue in our visitor messages!

That's too bad. This is the first thread about ENTP's that was derailed by an INTJ. It was actually getting interesting.


To the OP: I was thinking along the same lines as Economica. He might have a crush on you. You moved away and he got married, so there might be some baggage there that he doesn't know how to deal with. That's my $.02 anyway about a situation involving a bunch of strangers I really know nothing about.

 

[thisGuy]

crush on you and/or other things in life is he trying to figure out that somehow involve you
-any incident that brought you to an uncomfortable place
-an understanding(s) that he had with you and not with anyone else

like it or not, ENTP/INFJ *is* supposed to be the ideal match

 

[iwakar]

Irrespective of type I'd consider the possibility that he might have a crush on you.

...
To the OP: I was thinking along the same lines as Economica. He might have a crush on you. You moved away and he got married, so there might be some baggage there that he doesn't know how to deal with...

^^Oh this most definitely occurred to me. And I have certainly seen my brother (an ENTP) "act out" when he had unresolved feelings that didn't jibe with reality. He'd have these bizarre stints of risky behavior and angry outbursts, but he'd naturally feel compelled to subdue them so he'd alternate with cool civility and small talk. It's a pattern I've learned to recognize.

It helps to remember that anger is not an independent emotion, it stems from hurt. With ENTPs (or most people) you typically see the reac., not the causal emotion, which in this case may be sadness, confusion --even hopelessness.

 

[EcK]

i had the whole crush idea, because its simple and neat and everything, but I lacked data for a better analysis so its more of a default answer, which i didn't give until now for the aformentioned reasons, but then everybody did say that so here I am. I insist on the point that if everybody said that too its because that's what we can extrapolate from the data, which are sparse, so don't get all excited.

Entps are not dogmatic about their romantic relationships, I mean, in the case of real life infj i observed in their natural habitat, it seems like they're way more into that whole 'i found him now lets make a little bird house' and totally close the door to other options, which is something I and I think entps don't do or even understand in my case. But 'we' are also socially conscious, so we're not going to 'throw everything away for her'. Which leads to conflicts, frustration. And we already have difficulties waiting in a fast food restaurant.
So its possible, that at some level its related to the frustration of not getting things his way, and not actually really knowing what way he wanted it, and being stuck in an impossible situation.

Well, I just don't know, as i said, i lack data. and the good old neo freudian intepretation is generally the easiest one, with us being into reproduction and everything.

 

[Tiny Army]

What did you do? Your OP seems to indicate that you did nothing wrong and this ENTP just flipped out at you for now reason but I'm going to say it now, you INFJs are not the most naturally tactful people on earth. I know an INFJ who keeps getting banned from party houses for being rude and she for the most part has no idea what she's done wrong at all. Ask his wife and your fiance if he has said anything to them about the situation.

Add to that the fact that Ne dominants are quick to be offended because everything you say and do fits into our greater understanding of you as a person and we can often carry out a thought to (what we think is) it's logical conclusion and get twice as offended as is necessary before the other party has even finished their thought. You probably made a tactless remark and he probably blew it completely out of proportion.

 

[EcK]

Oh, there's also the fact that some of us, I think, might have this 'i want to be loved' thing.
I'll speak for myself here, but contrarely to what people may think, friendship is NOT something i give easily, most people who think of me as a friend are just acquaintances to me. I'd never go out of my way to help them, except if i was in a good mood that day or could gain something out of it in some way (which includes being liked, or having people do my homeworks for me)

So if he considered you as a friend, and you just left. The entp, who's whole universe is about how special and unique he is, will not like it, obviously. Because it states that he's something of an option in your life. We know this is childish, especially when we see how we treat most people.
He was probably happy with the mix he had between you and his girlfriend, different tastes, different kind of relationships, but a nice overall mix keeping him happy.
Then you left, and he had to accept that he wasn't an absolute must-have in your life, when he considered you as a friend, which again, is something very special to me/us, even if I never seem to make a big deal out of it, it's the only thing in the universe i hold as sacred.

 

[jenocyde]

OP - my take on the whole thing? He was not angry with you before, but he's angry with you now.

You assumed he had some sort of separation anxiety, when he had none that you know of. When you visited, he was just joking around (in his mind) which was enhanced by his usage of whatever substance he was on. Now, in the context of good friends, I would expect my friend to give me a pass if I act out of turn once or twice and wasn't aware of it. But you think it's part of some larger problem with you.

So you turn around and complain about him. If I were him, I would feel pissed off and insulted. Like we were friends and I thought everything was cool, because you never said anything to me, but then you turn around and are having this whole big conflict in your head with me that I had no idea about. And you don't even have the decency to tell me directly.

So to smooth things over, I would apologize to your fiance, too - since he was the one that approached me. But I would be waiting for your phone call to tell me that you are sorry for overreacting.

Since you never called him, he thought you were the one holding the grudge. Then you still had the nerve to dance at his wedding? Chutzpah.

I, for one, don't hold grudges. It's senseless and time wasting. I'm sure he is annoyed with you because he's assuming that you are holding some huge grudge. Just call him and congratulate him. Talk to him directly and just make things back to normal. Don't even bring up the incident when you visited. It's not worth it. Just move forward (unless, of course, you think this man has a substance problem...)

My 2 cents.


EDIT: knowing ESTPs and the way they speak, he probably ripped your ENTP a new one, compounding the problem even more. Seriously, he probably made it seem like it was 10x worse than what it was - I'm sure that has had an affect on the ENTPs psyche, too.

 

[Qre:us]

Was your move sprung on him, did you give him foreshadowing (enough heads-up) that you both were indeed contemplating moving? Or, did you let him know once everything was already decided? How much heads-up was he given? Was the move something that you, more than your ESTP hubby, initiated? He might hold resentment towards you for taking away his best friend so abruptly (ESTP), without giving him sufficient time to prepare.

i'm well aware that ENTPs have faults. i pointed out what i did because whenever anyone announces that they know 'quite a few' Ns in real life, then i'm naturally doubtful of their typing skills.

This would assume that there's a dispersed distribution given any setting for Ns. General population trends cannot predict small sample trend (it's the other way around, once amalgamated). It may very well be that clusters exist due to correlation with settings. E.g., diff areas w/in academia, or by interests, etc.

 

[mwv6r]

Thanks for your responses. I'll answer some of them one by one -->

i think the fact that you believe you know 'quite a few ENTPs' says something.

I do know a lot of ENTPs because my ESTP fiance seems to attract them. I can think of four off the top of my head in his inner circle, and three of those I know for sure are ENTP because they let me type them. (I'm sure there are more ENTPs if I extend out to his old college buddies, former coworkers, etc. He just seems to attract ENTP friends and enjoys their company because he says they're 'like him but uncensored.' He also works in insurance sales and judging from the coworkers I've met there seem to be more ESTP's and ENTP's there than you might find in a random sample.) I think that intuitives, especially extroverted intuitives, are not all that unusual in certain circles, although sensors certainly do outnumber intuitives in general.

Shall we tell her at that point that she may be not infj cause we are totally pissed by the post btw ? or shall we wait and watch ?

I'm sorry if I've offended you somehow. I've always gotten along easily with ENTPs and enjoyed their sense of humor and witty repartee. That's why I've been so surprised by the conflict I'm having with this ENTP. And, for the record, I'm 100% positive that I'm INFJ.

Irrespective of type I'd consider the possibility that he might have a crush on you.

Looking back over my post I can see how it might be tempting to read that in between the lines, and I do sense a certain chemistry between myself and several of the ENTPs I've known, but I'm confident that it's not a factor in this situation. The ENTP and I were good friends certainly but he is very devoted to his ESFJ partner. (It's somewhat of a volatile relationship at times, as you might imagine with an ENTP+ESFJ pairing, but he is definitely devoted.)

...I have certainly seen my brother (an ENTP) "act out" when he had unresolved feelings that didn't jibe with reality. He'd have these bizarre stints of risky behavior and angry outbursts, but he'd naturally feel compelled to subdue them so he'd alternate with cool civility and small talk. It's a pattern I've learned to recognize.

Yes, that completely describes the situation! When he's sober, he plays nice with me and can be very polite. And then it was like seething anger toward me after he had some alcohol/other drugs in him (I suppose because his subconscious was unleashed?).

Several posters suggested that he may have a drug/alcohol problem and looking back I think that's very possible. I would guess maybe an alcohol problem and possibly a prescription drug problem as well. The thing is, though, that if he has substance abuse issues I'm pretty certain that he's had them since before we met, and he didn't used to have this anger toward me. So the substance abuse could be causing him to express his anger more freely, but beyond that something has changed in our friendship because he never used to act like that toward me.

Oh, there's also the fact that some of us, I think, might have this 'i want to be loved' thing....
So if he considered you as a friend, and you just left. The entp, who's whole universe is about how special and unique he is, will not like it, obviously. Because it states that he's something of an option in your life. We know this is childish, especially when we see how we treat most people.
He was probably happy with the mix he had between you and his girlfriend, different tastes, different kind of relationships, but a nice overall mix keeping him happy.
Then you left, and he had to accept that he wasn't an absolute must-have in your life, when he considered you as a friend, which again, is something very special to me/us, even if I never seem to make a big deal out of it, it's the only thing in the universe i hold as sacred.

That actually really, really resonates. Thank you for the insight. I do think he harbors some resentment that we moved and I guess in a sense abandoned them as best friends, although of course it was never our intention to hurt him. His wife was also sad when we left but did not seem to take it so personally. I would say that I was good friends with both the ESFJ wife and the ENTP himself, and my ESTP fiance is friends with the ESFJ too, but definitely the strongest bond was between my ESTP fiance and the ENTP. They were very, very tight.

As I mentioned in the original post, he was quite angry with my fiance and avoided him for a couple weeks after he found out we were moving. Now he is fine with my fiance, but seems to have transferred the anger to me. Maybe he subconsciously blames me for the move and for "taking away" his best friend?? That's actually not logical, because moving back to our home town was a mutual decision that worked best for both our careers and for getting closer to our families. But maybe when my fiance first told the ENTP, maybe he pushed it off as my decision because the ENTP was so hurt that it made my fiance feel guilty and uncomfortable? And so maybe that's why the ENTP's now angry with me? Hmm. That's the theory that's forming in my head at least. Also, ever since the first incident six months ago, we hadn't really talked to the ENTP but had been keeping in touch pretty much solely with the ESFJ, not intentionally of course, but just because she was always the one who reached out. Maybe he's hurt that my ESTP didn't contact him directly? I don't know... Although that seems like something he'd be more angry with my fiance for than with me

But I do feel like now overall I have a better understanding of why he's angry with me, even if I think it's misplaced and a little irrational. How do you think I should move forward? My partner and I do want to try to remain friends with them. I am very non-confrontational and my typical way of dealing with something like this would be to act like nothing ever happened and hope that time will heal all wounds. But based on the experience this weekend, I'm thinking that may not work on him, and I'm not sure how many more volatile encounters with him I can handle... Should I confront him? If so, what might be the best way to do so without further angering him?

 

[Antimony]

That's too bad. This is the first thread about ENTP's that was derailed by an INTJ. It was actually getting interesting.

Oh well. I have been derail INTJ things all the time

I guess other people have to be given the shot of derailment besides me.

 

[mwv6r]

....Since you never called him, he thought you were the one holding the grudge. Then you still had the nerve to dance at his wedding? Chutzpah.

I, for one, don't hold grudges. It's senseless and time wasting. I'm sure he is annoyed with you because he's assuming that you are holding some huge grudge. Just call him and congratulate him. Talk to him directly and just make things back to normal. Don't even bring up the incident when you visited. It's not worth it. Just move forward (unless, of course, you think this man has a substance problem...)

My 2 cents.


EDIT: knowing ESTPs and the way they speak, he probably ripped your ENTP a new one, compounding the problem even more. Seriously, he probably made it seem like it was 10x worse than what it was - I'm sure that has had an affect on the ENTPs psyche, too.

I get the gist of your post. I probably should have called him personally six months ago to let him know everything was cool from my end. I don't think it was chutzpah to dance with him at the wedding though because up to that point in the evening things had been smooth and so far indications were that the situation was dead and buried. Later on (after more alcohol) is when things started to unravel.

I can tell you for certain that my ESTP didn't rip into him because he showed me the text message before he sent it. The ESFJ and then the ENTP had sent him text messages the next day asking if I was mad and why because I left suddenly (I didn't leave to be dramatic but because I didn't want to cry in front of them. In those situations I try to get out so that I don't become emotional in front of people. Who knows maybe I should have just stayed and cried and maybe it would have gotten things out in the open where they could have been resolved, although in my defense he was pretty scary that night). Anyway, my ESTP's text in response was very mild, something like "Mary feels like you were rude to her the other night." Then the ENTP texted back that he was sorry if he offended me, and that was that, or so I thought...

 

[mwv6r]

Was your move sprung on him, did you give him foreshadowing (enough heads-up) that you both were indeed contemplating moving? Or, did you let him know once everything was already decided? How much heads-up was he given? Was the move something that you, more than your ESTP hubby, initiated? He might hold resentment towards you for taking away his best friend so abruptly (ESTP), without giving him sufficient time to prepare.

Yes good point, I was starting to come to that conclusion myself and just now read your post.

He didn't have much advance notice about the move at all, maybe a couple of weeks, and we told them after it was already decided. We actually sat on the info for several weeks because we were nervous to tell them (knew they'd be disappointed, especially the ENTP) and we weren't sure how to do it.... Again, we weren't trying to be mean or hurt them intentionally, of course, sometimes those things are just a little awkward.

 

[Qre:us]

Yes good point, I was starting to come to that conclusion myself and just now read your post.

He didn't have much advance notice about the move at all, maybe a couple of weeks, and we told them after it was already decided. We actually sat on the info for several weeks because we were nervous to tell them (knew they'd be disappointed, especially the ENTP) and we weren't sure how to do it.... Again, we weren't trying to be mean or hurt them intentionally, of course, sometimes those things are just a little awkward.

Bromance leads to many a

Give it time to get over his petulance (ENTPs often become very kid-like when they don't know how exactly to channel hurt, and most often, it becomes anger, and them going for your jugular). And, figure out some ways to conveniently, and surrepticiously convey to him that it was a mutual decision on both your parts (hubby and yourself), if the friendship is that important, give opportunities, esp. your hubby, to show that he does miss the ENTP, terribly, horribly, grievingly (yes, it's a bit dramatic, but that ENTP seems a bit petulant and dramatic), call out the issue and what you assume his hurt is over, and let time do the rest.

EDIT: I don't think you did anything really wrong, actually, the only shady area is not giving the ENTP enough credit to be upfront with him/them as soon as you knew, and thus letting the problem sit which exacerbated the situation.

 

[jenocyde]

I get the gist of your post. I probably should have called him personally six months ago to let him know everything was cool from my end. I don't think it was chutzpah to dance with him at the wedding though because up to that point in the evening things had been smooth and so far indications were that the situation was dead and buried. Later on (after more alcohol) is when things started to unravel.

I can tell you for certain that my ESTP didn't rip into him because he showed me the text message before he sent it. The ESFJ and then the ENTP had sent him text messages the next day asking if I was mad and why because I left suddenly (I didn't leave to be dramatic but because I didn't want to cry in front of them. In those situations I try to get out so that I don't become emotional in front of people. Who knows maybe I should have just stayed and cried and maybe it would have gotten things out in the open where they could have been resolved, although in my defense he was pretty scary that night). Anyway, my ESTP's text in response was very mild, something like "Mary feels like you were rude to her the other night." Then the ENTP texted back that he was sorry if he offended me, and that was that, or so I thought...

I know you don't think it was chutzpah, I'm telling you what I would think - and that's the whole point of this thread, right?

If I had gotten that text from my friend, to be honest, I would write you off as well. I don't want to be around a sad, mopey person who obviously doesn't like me and is fighting back tears whenever in my presence.

I am not saying that is what you are, by any means, just what he may be thinking. Of course he would apologize, but maybe he still has no idea what the hell happened all of a sudden. And now he knows (or feels strongly) that you don't like him, but you still haven't spoken to him about it. Hence, the little outbursts of "you don't like me" when he's been drinking.

It's not brain surgery, just call him and clear the air. Stop guessing about what he may be feeling and just ask him. Or ask his wife, if you're too shy. But it seems that you just want to believe it's about the move. So, then that should be your belief. Either way, you have to talk to him if you want to remain friends. We really have no way of knowing the truth.

 

[mwv6r]

If I had gotten that text from my friend, to be honest, I would write you off as well. I don't want to be around a sad, mopey person who obviously doesn't like me and is fighting back tears whenever in my presence.

Actually I did a pretty good job of pretending his comments weren't bothering me / pretending I didn't notice them. My fiance asked me afterwards if I wanted him to say anything to the ENTP and I said no because I didn't want to create any drama at their wedding and because going down that road last time with an intermediary clearly screwed things up worse. So now I am debating whether to contact him personally to clear the air or just to hope for better luck next time, and honestly I'm leaning toward the latter because I feel like bringing it up at this point would come across as too similar to what happened last time, and then it'd be like, oh, she always gets offended and then I have to hear about it later, etc.

Also, I want to clarify that I have played it pretty cool both times he was rude to me. Even the first time I didn't get teary-eyed or anything in front of him, I always wait for privacy or the comfort of a close friend before letting out the waterworks. And I'm not a shrinking violet; I can handle myself well in a variety of social situations, but when I get the feeling that someone is being pointedly rude to me repeatedly and maliciously throughout an evening, then that does hurt my feelings and I try to remove myself from the situation. I think that part of why this is so perplexing to me is that it has never happened to me before. I usually get along very well with pretty much all types of people because I'm friendly, don't take offense to little things, and am not judgmental. I just wanted to put that out there because I realized from looking back at my posts it may sound like I'm overemotional all the time when really I am careful to avoid dramatic displays of emotion.

 

[jenocyde]

I can tell you are a reasonable person. That has nothing to do with his perception of the matter. If he feels (or your fiance implied) that you had something to do with the move, or with not telling him sooner, coupled with the fact that you smiled in his face but then had your fiance text him later... and then didn't acknowledge his apology - yeah, I can kinda see why he'd get the impression that you don't like him, but are pretending to. So, like I said the first time, just call him and act friendly and normal and this will all blow over. But if you must know and talk about it, ask him or his wife directly. But I would just pretend like it all never happened. He'll get over it. It's nice that you even care enough to go through all this. Is his friendship really worth it to you?

 

[mwv6r]

It's nice that you even care enough to go through all this. Is his friendship really worth it to you?

That's a good question. I think if he and I were just friends as individuals, I might have jumped ship by now. But since we're friends as two couples, it makes things a little different because there are two other people involved. I definitely want to remain friends with his wife, and that wouldn't really be possible if he and I don't get along. Similarly I don't want to get in between my fiance and his friendship. If we can get to a point where things calm down between us, it will have been worth it to me to go through this. Hopefully things do calm down. The next time we'll see them will be at our wedding, and it's occurred to me that both times there were negative incidents it was on his turf, so to speak. This time it will be on ours, and there will be so many people around us that I'll be able to pretty tactfully escape and just go talk to someone else if things start to get strange, so I am feeling more optimistic. We'll see.

 

[onemoretime]

Could be something completely extraneous as well - anything stressful going on in his life? It might not be that he's in love with you per se, but maybe there's someone at work that he is in love with, and you being similar to her allows him a "safer" avenue for the ventilation of his internal turmoil.

Or, he could just be an insensitive jerk. We do have a tendency to be that way from time to time.

 

[Argus]

The ENTP has moved on. There may be some deep, underlying reasoning, but there most likely isn't.

He just... moved on.