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  1. #91
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Synarch, I'm going to (withdraw) and think about what you said. I feel like something is resonating. Thanks once again, my brother.

  2. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Synarch View Post
    I think there is this tendency in ENXP's to draw what they need internally from the world around them. This makes them prone to chasing highs, getting bored, and generally getting into trouble because that which makes you not bored, I think, has to come from within.

    I don't know where my low self-esteem comes from. Maybe from a feeling of perfectionism and being too idealistic (aka unrealistic) about myself and the world. Ironically, it's also what drives me to do neat things and be creative. I create my best stuff when I at war with myself and the world. So, go figure.

    bolded part? that has to be the truest shit i have ever heard, especailly for extroverts and probably one of the more difficult things for ENTPs to admit as brings them down in relation to everyone else around them

    why would being idealistic bring your self-esteem down? thats the only thing in the above post that doesn't make sense to me (or resonate with me)...shouldn't it be empowering to be doing the 'right thing'? especially as an ENTP who is probably prone to one-up-manship and values one-upping unconventionalism (in self) more

    i am pretty idealistic too...and as recently as two weeks ago, i have had to admit that the problem with ideals is that they are not ideal AT ALL

  3. #93
    Once Was Synarch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thisGuy View Post
    why would being idealistic bring your self-esteem down? thats the only thing in the above post that doesn't make sense to me (or resonate with me)...shouldn't it be empowering to be doing the 'right thing'? especially as an ENTP who is probably prone to one-up-manship and values one-upping unconventionalism (in self) more
    Because since I focus on my idealized self, I can't be happy with my real self. When you are too idealistic it makes it difficult to be happy with the way things really are.
    "Create like a god, command like a king, work like a slave."

  4. #94
    Once Was Synarch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    Synarch, I'm going to (withdraw) and think about what you said. I feel like something is resonating. Thanks once again, my brother.
    You're welcome. Good luck.

    In the end, it's just life. To get what we want, we have to look inside no matter how unnatural that is.
    "Create like a god, command like a king, work like a slave."

  5. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Synarch View Post
    Because since I focus on my idealized self, I can't be happy with my real self. When you are too idealistic it makes it difficult to be happy with the way things really are.
    right...that would be your perfectionist self re-enforcing the idealism...for some reason, that is empowering to me. to me, its about improving and not totally about reprimand (and as a consequence, succumbing to pity?). reprimand is required to make yourself realize what you can be...but why should that bring you down when your not-so-perfect self is still way better than most things around you

    only way i can see one as having low self-esteem while being an idealist is when you DON'T WORK towards improving yourself when you know you can and you should. that would give you a low sense of self-worth since you are indulging yourself in a behavior that does not sit well with your sense of self, but is still what you are displaying to the world; and therefore what you are defined by...consequently defined as your 'real' self. 'real' is a relative term.

    also, i found that i'm better at coming to terms with depressing situations if i am with people. i can do it by myself but it takes way longer. i need external input and different viewpoints

  6. #96
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thisGuy View Post
    bolded part? that has to be the truest shit i have ever heard, especailly for extroverts and probably one of the more difficult things for ENTPs to admit as brings them down in relation to everyone else around them
    The big problem with that is that this problem, while perhaps temporarily sating you, will not bring contentment or joy. To make a strange video game analogy (I tend to be good at those), it's like on the game Chrono Trigger, when you're in the future and use one of the machines to reenergize yourself, but it always brings the text "but you're still hungry..." (as an apocalypse has destroyed the ability of the earth to produce food).

    I think this is where the "inventor" part is - you'll only be happy when forced to introvert when you manipulate the interior world in a similar sense as you naturally do the outside world. This is where I think writing and drawing does well for us - it allows us to take those internal concepts and extend it to the extraverted world, where Ne can go to work and find its satisfaction. It's also why, even though we do not immediately like it and can think it a waste of time, revising and editing things we've already worked on ('tinkering' with it) can be a great source of satisfaction.

    Quote Originally Posted by Synarch View Post
    Because since I focus on my idealized self, I can't be happy with my real self. When you are too idealistic it makes it difficult to be happy with the way things really are.
    Hah, I know what you're talking about. I think I got myself into a six-year funk at the start of college/university, when it was easy to indulge Ne and the Si coping mechanism for getting through childhood/adolescence had a big problem with that. I can see where people came up with the idea of total depravity of mankind - it was a representation of their realization of their disillusionment with their self-concept.

    It's true, we're all a bunch of babbling sacks of shit. The difference is when you come to realize that you're a babbling sack of shit that happens to be good at a few things. That'll bring you relief, but not necessarily happiness.

    In my estimation, happiness comes when you realize that even for all these flaws, people do genuinely love you, and more importantly, you do genuinely (and seemingly irrationally) love other people, and it's in this that we establish significance in life. Look at the older ENTPs that we've been able to come in contact with - the content ones have a love affair with the whole world, while the curmudgeonly ones are not angry - just disappointed that what they care about so much still can't seem to get its act together. That doesn't mean that there isn't a sense of great joy when it does happen.

  7. #97

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    Completely productive derail. These are the best kinds.
    "The purpose of life is to be defeated by greater and greater things." - Rainer Maria Rilke

  8. #98
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    The big problem with that is that this problem, while perhaps temporarily sating you, will not bring contentment or joy.
    You are under the assumption that happiness = longevity. Or that people are constant. All emotions are temporary.


    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    It's true, we're all a bunch of babbling sacks of shit. The difference is when you come to realize that you're a babbling sack of shit that happens to be good at a few things. That'll bring you relief, but not necessarily happiness.
    Sometimes relief is better than happiness. Happiness is volatile while relief seems to be comforting.

    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    In my estimation, happiness relief comes when you realize that even for all these flaws, people do genuinely love you, and more importantly, you do genuinely (and seemingly irrationally) love other people, and it's in this that we establish significance in life. Look at the older ENTPs that we've been able to come in contact with - the content ones have a love affair with the whole world, while the curmudgeonly ones are not angry - just disappointed that what they care about so much still can't seem to get its act together. That doesn't mean that there isn't a sense of great joy relief when it does happen.
    fixed.


    Iwak - I knew you would appreciate this!

  9. #99
    ..... Intricate Mystic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    It doesn't always work that way. We are not all just hopping from one adventure to the next. We are capable of deeply loving and committed relationships. We can also be pricks, like any person when they are immature. Sorry that you got hurt by an immature prick.
    Thanks, Jenocyde. I realize that my ENTP was a bad one. They had a lot of major issues. That was part of the fascination for me, actually. INFJ's and messed up people.... I should have just run as fast as possible in the other direction when I first met them!

    Quote Originally Posted by Synarch View Post
    This was hard for me to admit. Essentially it is using people to get something you haven't built inside. And since it comes only from other people it is never enough. In SolitaryWalker's book he talks about the self-effacing tendencies of ENTP's and this really hit home. This notion that orientation to the external is, in a sense, self-denying.
    I actually relate to the external focus and self-denying, because of Fe.

    When ENXP's become unhappy they usually kneejerk and try to change their circumstances. I see this all the time. Externally focused people start with the outside world when they're miserable.They figure a new life will make them happy. New boyfriend, new job, new friends, new experiences. The growth comes from recognizing what the constant factor is in your unhappiness: YOU.
    I just realized you said ENXP here... my mother is an ENFP. You have just explained yet another major issue in my life... my mother's constant need to move to a new place! I lived in multiple states growing up, and being a shy INFJ, having to make friends all over again at a new school every 2 years (on average) made my childhood and teenage years really awful.

    The idea that happiness comes from within is something I need to really contemplate and pound into my head.

    You've got lots of wisdom. I'm going to start calling you YODA.


    The thing that hurts more for the people who get used is realizing that they never really knew you. They never really stopped to consider the impact on you. In a way, you were never real. But, I wouldn't be angry at ENXP's because in the end you do not build anything by floating from flower to flower. In the end, you die alone and jaded. Untouched. Unknown.
    In my case, I made sure the ENTP knew about some of their impact on me.

    Jenocyde mentioned your INFJ girlfriend... I would think she could get to your inner self, so you wouldn't be untouched and unknown. We have skillz.

  10. #100
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    You are under the assumption that happiness = longevity. Or that people are constant. All emotions are temporary.
    This is very true. At the same time, you'd agree that it's rather resigned to not being workable, wouldn't you? That simply accepting that emotions are transient may preclude a greater understanding of them? It's somewhat like quanta - yes, their transience is completely characteristic of them. There may not be any constancy, but there are trends - and it's in those trends that the bigger picture can be seen. Someone I'd qualify as "happy" or "content" may be sad from time to time, but can always appreciate the things in life that make it worthwhile.

    Sometimes relief is better than happiness. Happiness is volatile while relief seems to be comforting.
    I'm not so sure about that. Once again, in our particular circumstances, we're dealing with a relationship between the extraverted and introverted worlds that can be often confusing. I'd say that while relief is comforting, it's rarely satisfying, as we're not primarily oriented toward our own inner world, and we still find someway of extraverting the process (such as how even though we move on from things quickly, we still analyze them to see how things could have worked differently).

    I'd also say relief is transient as well - there's always some new disaster to rear its ugly head. Not only that, but I don't know if relief and comfort are always concurrent - giving up on a difficult task due to small roadblocks can be relieving, but rarely is comforting, possibly due to FeSi implications (which leads me to another thought - are the tert and inf the seat of comfort, while the aux and tert the seat of actualization? If so, this makes the tert way more important than its place may suggest).

    fixed
    .

    I guess that this once again is a fine distinction of different terminology. The point I guess I was making was that "happiness" (which you can define as contentment, satisfaction or comfortable acceptance) comes from the reconciliation of your tert Fe - that you're not complete as a person without loving others and enjoying good relationships with them, and that this requires work.

    Likewise, I wouldn't characterize it as solely a sense of relief when we watch a kid finally get something - there may be a sense of relief at the beginning when we realize our work is finished, but I find in my experience it quickly gives way to the joy of recognition of one's own pleasures in another's experience. I'm elated to watch a child learn something because I remember how much pleasure it brought me to learn things at their age, and am overjoyed that I helped bring that to someone else.

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