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  1. #51
    videodrones; questions Verfremdungseffekt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTJMom View Post
    I get lonely from the lack of someone to share my soul with.
    Ah, see. I never filled out the form.

  2. #52
    Senior Member WoodsWoman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTJMom View Post
    I don't think there's going to be any such thing.
    I mean people did bring meals and stuff, but they all had lives to get back to.

    but just to make a comment on topic...
    We've had these discussions before about how N's tend to feel lonely even when they're around people.
    It's not the quantity of conversation that's important, it's the quality...
    (though the quantity should be more than once every 5 years).
    Hug!! - and when you are accustomed to having quality conversation readily available every day it's even worse. High quality conversation is hard to come by.

  3. #53
    Black Magic Buzzard Kra's Avatar
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    Dealing with loneliness is a very difficult thing for me. I can never quite rationalize why either. I can be in the middle of a group of my very closest friends that I've known for years... and then it blindsides me. That feeling of, "I wish I had someone special to share this with."

    Immediately, I tell myself that I'm surrounded by all the people that I actually care about, and that actually care about me, but somethings' just not satisfied.

    I have often thought that my tertiary Fi is running wild, building up fantasies that just aren't realistic, but I just can't seem to calm it down no matter what I do. I've often thought that maybe it's inferior Se acting up, and Fi not allowing it a vent. I honestly don't know, but it's a hell of a thing for an NT to be stricken with.

    Regardless of why, I do know that I have a horrible habit of projecting onto women. I can never tell if I truly like them, or if I've just manifested something onto them. Maybe I'm delusional. :crazy:

  4. #54
    Welcome to Sunnyside Mondo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    Mondo - totally. My feelings exactly. I don't really want emotional intimacy though, not to the level a lot of people seem to think is the holy grail of their lives When I really thought it through to its conclusion, all it entails and all that, it didn't really look that attractive, after all
    Exactly!

    Thus far, most of my relationships have not been about emotional intimacy. It's just not the way things naturally work. I'm currently single but I doubt any of my future relationships will be like the one my ISFP sister and her INFP boyfriend (also one of my best friends- he originally just knew her as "my sister") currently have.

    The two are practically inseparable, regularly tell each other that they love each other, passively agree with one another (both have a hatred for conflict), and can spend hours cuddling together on the couch without saying anything to each other! I think it's kind of cute but it's just not a role I feel I'd ever take in a romantic relationship.

    In the past with my relationships, my role has been one which didn't necessarily foster an emotionally intimate connection but really hit on intellectual intimacy.
    It could be for two other reasons besides personality type.
    1.) I'm naturally wary of emotional intimacy- being fully aware that sex is usually part of the bargain. It takes a lot for me to trust its genuineness. I'm aware of the hidden motive.
    2.) Both my parents prefer Thinking over Feeling and emotional intimacy with either my parents was far from common. I love them both but they show it more so in their support for me and contributions to my well-being rather than hugs and kisses..and I do the same. My entire immediate family, with the exception of my ISFP sister, is comprised of Thinkers.

    Unfortunately, this has somewhat led to most of my relationships to fail. Especially, when I want to argue for sport and the poor woman I'm dating has no desire to.. either simply agreeing with what I say (even if I'd deliberately contradict myself) or disagree with what I say and then demand that there won't be any discussion on the matter..

    Not everyone truly needs such a connection. I've been reading a biography on Benjamin Franklin (an ENTP). He married his wife for purely practical and logical reasons and while he flirted with the ladies in Paris- it had been reported that he would only flirt with those he had an intellectual connection with and he was motivated to pursue some sort of relationship more so to an interest in intellectual discussion rather than wanting to snuggle all day with her.

    I show my love for those I care for but I don't do it in such an explicit manner. It's weird. People often expect me to do so but it will often come out as too awkward.. to be honest, I consider that I'm showing some sort of fondness by even devoting my time to a specific person.
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  5. #55
    Senior Member Misty_Mountain_Rose's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kra View Post
    Dealing with loneliness is a very difficult thing for me. I can never quite rationalize why either. I can be in the middle of a group of my very closest friends that I've known for years... and then it blindsides me. That feeling of, "I wish I had someone special to share this with."

    Immediately, I tell myself that I'm surrounded by all the people that I actually care about, and that actually care about me, but somethings' just not satisfied.

    I have often thought that my tertiary Fi is running wild, building up fantasies that just aren't realistic, but I just can't seem to calm it down no matter what I do. I've often thought that maybe it's inferior Se acting up, and Fi not allowing it a vent. I honestly don't know, but it's a hell of a thing for an NT to be stricken with.

    Regardless of why, I do know that I have a horrible habit of projecting onto women. I can never tell if I truly like them, or if I've just manifested something onto them. Maybe I'm delusional. :crazy:
    I experience quite the same thing. Good job putting it into words!
    Embrace the possibilities.

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mondo View Post
    Unfortunately, this has somewhat led to most of my relationships to fail. Especially, when I want to argue for sport and the poor woman I'm dating has no desire to.. either simply agreeing with what I say (even if I'd deliberately contradict myself) or disagree with what I say and then demand that there won't be any discussion on the matter..
    lol...i know eh

    i give'em ammo to come after me but they are so lost in what i previously said (i think) that they completely overlook the tickle they could have me with

  7. #57
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mondo View Post

    Not everyone truly needs such a connection. I've been reading a biography on Benjamin Franklin (an ENTP). He married his wife for purely practical and logical reasons and while he flirted with the ladies in Paris- it had been reported that he would only flirt with those he had an intellectual connection with and he was motivated to pursue some sort of relationship more so to an interest in intellectual discussion rather than wanting to snuggle all day with her.

    I show my love for those I care for but I don't do it in such an explicit manner. It's weird. People often expect me to do so but it will often come out as too awkward.. to be honest, I consider that I'm showing some sort of fondness by even devoting my time to a specific person.
    Yes... I think the likes of you and I would've been happier before Hollywood made everyone suddenly decide that this emotional intimacy was the be all and end all and defining factor of a partnership. Back when being married was more about being in a team that worked together for mutual goals for each other's progress through life and the world, rather than hearts and flowers and romance and stuff.

    I think it was a bit more honest in the pre-Byron days lol When it'd be a case of convincing the girl in question that you'd look after her, stick with her, advance her interests and those of any children you'd have, not beat her up, if she'd just consent to having sex with you on a regular basis

    The trouble I see with all the romance stuff is that in many cases it's simply unrealistic, and even if it does happen, it's like a storm that just can't last forever and will inevitably blow itself out, you can't live constantly in such a state of intensity of emotion. Then what happens when the hormones die down a bit? You start blaming each other for the magic having gone, saying the spark's gone and that's it, now the relationship's failed. I reckon that's why divorce is so much more common now than when people were a bit more realistic about what a long term relationship actually entailed. You know, the times when you don't feel fuzzy about each other at all, or even can't stand the sight of each other... which you just keep going through, and by and by you remember as something reminds you how fond you are of them really, and how you can't imagine anyone else being right for you to cohabit and raise a family with.
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  8. #58
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    On loneliness. Before one can begin to discuss loneliness one must establish general features of human nature that give rise to loneliness. Given that I haven't the time at the moment to establish empirical proofs for each statement I'm about to say, I ask that readers assume these axiomatic statements as self-evident so that I can spend the bulk of this essay discussing loneliness. The first axiom is that humans are social creatures. Second, humans are productive animals. Third, humans are complex creatures.

    Because humans are social creatures, there exists a drive towards socializing with other humans--especially when there are shared interests. On the other hand, because humans are productive animals there is an insatiable drive to create. Much of this is driven by attraction between the sexes. I agree with Orson Welles when he states that if it weren't for women, men would still be squatting in a cave eating raw meat. Correctly, it is primarily through attraction that humans are driven to produce. For example, it would not be uncommon for a young man in a romantic relationship to work very hard, be well kept, and be a genuine breadwinner. But if that young man breaks up and is on his own, suddenly he has no incentive to keep his car tidy, gets behind on certain things, and so on. Thus, the sublimation of sex and aggression into productive outlets is primarily responsible for civilization.

    Thus far I have established that man is a social and productive creature. However, there is another side to the economical nature of man. Since the onset of industrial capitalism there has been a strong division of labor. This can even be spotted in works as far back as Dostoevsky, where he says if you go to see a doctor for a nose infection, he sends you to a specialist in France. The doctor in France then tells you he only does left nostrils and sends you to another specialist. There is a touch of humor in it, but the point is we've become so specialized and good at carrying out little tasks often at the cost of the bigger picture and a more generalist type of knowledge and approach to life. More recently, with the communications and internet revolutions we've become even more specialized--highly effective in carrying out highly specific tasks. For example, it would not be extraordinary for one to go to Walmart and see a person stocking bins, yet upon asking the stockboy if there is a sale on for the bins you learn that he doesn't know. No, his task is merely to stock--not know anything about the product. And indeed at some point this becomes inefficient. Nevertheless, as a result of the commodification of everything and a highly specialized division of labor, humans themselves have become divided in this capitalist system. Robert Putnam has a book called 'Bowling Alone' which is a metaphor for American capitalist culture which is so divided and individualistic. In his book, Putnam discusses a concept called social capital which encompasses three broad components: trust, norms of reciprocity, and networks of engagement. A vibrant civil society is one with a high level of social capital. So for instance, in a library in Sweden, one can go to the washroom without having to worry about someone stealing one's books. This is not the case in a typical library in New York where people are more mistrustful of each other.

    Because humans are complex creatures we pursue systems which satisfy certain needs while depriving others. In this case, the economy takes precedence over socialization, and it turns out the economy is a way of socializing. Now, the average person works and goes home--maybe does something in the evenings a few days a week if at all. As a result, work has come to define how humans relate. Not suprisingly, humans don't just relate through production but also through consumption: "let's go out for a latte and some pancakes", "how about dinner at the Keg?", "have you tried the new swifter sweeper?". With that said, capitalism is necessary to generate the wealth and material to satisfy certain needs, but if not controlled it reduces humans to mere cogs in a machine when humans have other drives toward sociability and happiness that this system in its totality does not accommodate to. So what do people, who are increasingly unhappy as a result of alienation, deprivation, and being reduced to a cog-wheel, do? Well, let's look at the evidence. We've witnessed the self-help section in book stores grow exponentially. Many have turned to alcohol and substance abuse for temporary alleviation of their plight, while some blame others.

    Yet these are merely band-aid solutions, often doing more harm than good. The reality is that it isn't humans per se to look to but the system within which humans operate. The system that creates incentives for humans to behave in certain ways. The system that depends on the obedience of millions of people who are given small rewards to keep the system going. If they stop obeying, the system fails.

    For reasons already mentioned, the capitalist system has had a fragmenting effect on humanity. Adding to this is technology--especially the Internet--which has contributed to globalization and localization at the same time. Indeed, technology has shrunk time and space. For example, it is not uncommon for one to be closer to someone across the world with shared interests than their own next door neighbour.

    In summary, I have established that humans are social, productive, and complex beings. As a result of the complexity and inherent contradictions in human nature (to have drives which under certain conditions lead to the opposition of the other) we've adopted a system (or had a system imposed on us depending on one's point of view) which has by and large reduced the individual to a mere cog-wheel turning in capitalist machinery. The upshot is that persons like the original poster experience a feeling of loneliness. Two points should be made. First, that this loneliness is nothing to be ashamed of. I know I am lonely sometimes (even though I'm somewhat of a loner, which for me has often amounted to abstaining from group participation). Still, I understand this as antithetical to the human drive toward sociability. Second, the structural factors that are built into the system are primarily responsible for this loneliness. As a result, it is important to be conscious of these factors and realize how the system alienates people and reduces people to human resources--mere units of production. What's needed isn't more capitalism, but stronger democratic institutions and more social capital which is the glue of civil society. More forums for participation, more mediums for expression, more corridors for people to participate in decisions that affect them, and so forth.

  9. #59
    Black Magic Buzzard Kra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    The trouble I see with all the romance stuff is that in many cases it's simply unrealistic, and even if it does happen, it's like a storm that just can't last forever and will inevitably blow itself out, you can't live constantly in such a state of intensity of emotion. Then what happens when the hormones die down a bit? You start blaming each other for the magic having gone, saying the spark's gone and that's it, now the relationship's failed. I reckon that's why divorce is so much more common now than when people were a bit more realistic about what a long term relationship actually entailed. You know, the times when you don't feel fuzzy about each other at all, or even can't stand the sight of each other... which you just keep going through, and by and by you remember as something reminds you how fond you are of them really, and how you can't imagine anyone else being right for you to cohabit and raise a family with.
    It really is amazing how they've built this illusion that infatuation is supremely important in a relationship. Especially considering it's often the first thing to abandon a relationship, often extremely selfish, and quite frankly has a lot to do with affairs. Couple that with my own experience of doing some of the most idiotic things I've ever done, for someone I've only known for a few months. Doesn't sound like a good thing if you ask me.

    But, I've come to realize the hardest part of becoming an adult is deprogramming most of what you learned as a kid.

    And I can't tell you the looks I've received when explaining my take on "Romeo and Juliet." A lot of people my age will tell me it's about "true love and love at first sight", to which I quickly respond, "No, it's about being young and stupid."

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mondo View Post
    Not everyone truly needs such a connection. I've been reading a biography on Benjamin Franklin (an ENTP). He married his wife for purely practical and logical reasons and while he flirted with the ladies in Paris- it had been reported that he would only flirt with those he had an intellectual connection with and he was motivated to pursue some sort of relationship more so to an interest in intellectual discussion rather than wanting to snuggle all day with her.
    Interestingly, Franklin never actually married Deborah Read. Theirs was a common-law marriage.

    Which changes your point not at all, really.

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