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  1. #11
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I branch between abstracted topics and concrete ones. (Sort of the difference between philosophy vs engineering, which can both be NT-style areas of expertise.)

    Concrete ones can be really interesting, if it's the sort of topic wherein you can use logic + imagination in order to build connections and drag in ideas and data from other disciplines to help you form an explanation or solution. NTs seem to enjoy making rational connections that run outside the box (and therefore help expand it).
    I still don't understand what an abstract conversation is vs a concrete one. How do you distinguish between the two? Oftentimes it's dependent on someone's sphere of knowledge...if they know about something then they can talk about it but if they don't then what quality of abstractedness and/or concreteness would enter the conversation regardless of the content or topic? The only thing I can think of is the "how" and the "why."
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

  2. #12
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    I still don't understand what an abstract conversation is vs a concrete one. How do you distinguish between the two? Oftentimes it's dependent on someone's sphere of knowledge...if they know about something then they can talk about it but if they don't then what quality of abstractedness and/or concreteness would enter the conversation regardless of the content or topic? The only thing I can think of is the "how" and the "why."
    I think it's sort of like being able to talk about things in terms of objects/concepts (and still deal with them as rational and specific entities in themselves) vs on the level of concrete detail. Sensors commonly go back to the tangible detail and have to speak on that level, rather than in terms of the larger, vaguer object, as the building blocks for their knowledge; intuitives shuffle the objects around, almost like speaking in algebra.

    (Sort of like in computer programming, if you are comparing object-oriented programming design to the old traditional styles of programming like Fortran or Basic.)

    Set theory and logic language (I took it in late high-school / early college) is another way to describe the intuitive process of dealing with general concepts as if they were the specific details -- the concepts can provide the basic level of granularity, rather than being seen as vague. Objects can be mentally grouped, and yet the nuances are preserved.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  3. #13
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I think it's sort of like being able to talk about things in terms of objects/concepts (and still deal with them as rational and specific entities in themselves) vs on the level of concrete detail. Sensors commonly go back to the tangible detail and have to speak on that level, rather than in terms of the larger, vaguer object, as the building blocks for their knowledge; intuitives shuffle the objects around, almost like speaking in algebra.

    Some people can't generalize out to the general objects/concepts from the concrete details, then speak in terms of the general objects themselves as if they were tangible details.

    (Sort of like in computer programming, if you are comparing object-oriented programming design to the old traditional styles of programming like Fortran or Basic.)
    OK, well the first thing that popped in my mind regarding this is reading restaurant reviews or maybe some other type of review and seeing what aspects of the dining experience people concentrate on and how it's described.

    And then I can see what reviews I thought were most helpful to get the information I find pertinent. Is it something like this?
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

  4. #14
    Senior Member Willfrey's Avatar
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    I suppose everybody's idea of what exactly is abstract is different. One could think the concept of gravitational singularity in physics is an abstract one but I'd find it fascinating. On the other hand I'd get bored and frustrated if I were embroiled in a discussion on how the mechanical pencil yet another sign of man's dependence on machines. If it is left to individual interpretation abstract ideas don't interest me, yet if it is grounded in reality and/or practicality I have an easier time with it.
    ...Then I ducked my head and the lights went out, and two guns blazed in the dark;
    And a woman screamed, and the lights went up, and two men lay stiff and stark...

  5. #15
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    OK, well the first thing that popped in my mind regarding this is reading restaurant reviews or maybe some other type of review and seeing what aspects of the dining experience people concentrate on and how it's described.

    And then I can see what reviews I thought were most helpful to get the information I find pertinent. Is it something like this?
    See my revised post.
    (note: Never quote my post until 4 minutes have passed, I always edit it 2-3x after saving -- doh!)
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  6. #16
    Senior Member wrldisquiethere's Avatar
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    Thanks for the replies. Although I think I need an SJ to interpret most of this for me so I can actually understand it and put it to practical use. Hah.

    I understand NF abstract conversation because I am Ne (tertiary) myself. NT is much harder for me.
    Si, Fe equal Fi & Ti

    "I had a bag of Fritos, they were Texas grilled Fritos. These Fritos had grill marks on them. They remind me of summer, when we used to fire up the barbeque and throw down some Fritos. I can still see my dad with the apron on. Better flip that Frito, dad, you know how I like it." -Mitch Hedberg

  7. #17
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    quantum physics: You could start with a sentence like: "Well, well this all would look ridicoulus to Newton, if he just had known that he hasnt got the membrane"
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  8. #18
    HAHHAHHAH! INTJ123's Avatar
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    It's all about imagination, just start your sentences off with, What If?.....Imagine that....Why would?

  9. #19
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    OK, well the first thing that popped in my mind regarding this is reading restaurant reviews or maybe some other type of review and seeing what aspects of the dining experience people concentrate on and how it's described.

    And then I can see what reviews I thought were most helpful to get the information I find pertinent. Is it something like this?
    If we talked about that, I'd then bounce of that and think about why do we bother reviewing restaurants, what are the social implications of reviews of restaurants. what about reveiws in general and why do we feel the need to seek others guidance on what we choose to purchase?

    What in evolution pushes us to seek the guidance of our peers? What benefit does this provide us as a species? Do some of us not seek guidance? What would they look like and how would they relate? How about animals, do they seek guidance of thier peers in a similiar fashion? Do the same biochemical principals that underlie love and social recognition also underlie our need for peer approval? Could the basics of the review process be based in watching our peers as they taste and try new items and somehow serve as social cues to guide us towards or away from dangerous foodstuffs?

    At about this point the Ss are getting up and leaving me and the NTs to finsih eating together. It can be very hard talking to Ss conversationally as everything gets abstract for me very quickly.

  10. #20
    Senior Member Shimmy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wrldisquiethere View Post
    Give me some ideas. As an NT, what are some good conversation topics that you find particularly stimulating?
    You want to have a nice conversation or do you want us to talk as much as possible. If it's the first thing you want then start talking hobbies and stuff. I love to talk about places I've been, jobs I've had, people I met, skills I learned etc.. On the other hand once you get me going with a topic like meta-physics, social psychology, politics or the aestheticism of music I won't shut up ever again and the conversation tends to get a bit one sided and dull for the other person after a while.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Set theory and logic language (I took it in late high-school / early college) is another way to describe the intuitive process of dealing with general concepts as if they were the specific details -- the concepts can provide the basic level of granularity, rather than being seen as vague. Objects can be mentally grouped, and yet the nuances are preserved.
    MBTI is a good example of this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    See my revised post.
    (note: Never quote my post until 4 minutes have passed, I always edit it 2-3x after saving -- doh!)
    You do that too?

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