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  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackwater View Post
    INTJs tend to "go off" on some spree of their own aligning all kinds of factors (Te) to fit with some end that they conjured up (Ni) and do so with a certitude that usually makes others think: "hmm, if they are so sure about it there must be something to it."
    Blackwater actually nailed it. The biggest weakness of INTJs is when the Ni leads the Te into a subjective conclusion, but the INTJ believes they are acting objectively.

    Everyone does this, but for the INTJ this is a special case.

    To the INTJ they have reached the logical objective conclusion, to the observer they are just acting on self-interest or another subjective reason.

    The result is the INTJ appears capricious, or sociopathic, or intimdating, or... etc.

    {Now realize we are talking about subjective conclusions, not every decision reached by the INTJ is like this. Most of this applies to interpersonal relations, where nearly everything is subjective.}

    And dammed if you can tell the INTJ this. The concept of being "wrong" or "subjective" is so alien to this process the INTJ often has a hard time not just dismissing this out of hand (another subjective conclusion!). They are "right", because they reasoned out the decision!

    Many INTJs are very intelligent and therefore come to the "right" subjective conclusion often enough to think they always come to the right conclusion. Any negative response from others is usually written off as the fault of the other person.

    The mature INTJ is aware of this trap, possibly after years of bashing their heads into society and other people makes them reconsider this process.

  2. #82
    / booyalab's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackwater View Post
    INTJs tend to "go off" on some spree of their own aligning all kinds of factors (Te) to fit with some end that they conjured up (Ni) and do so with a certitude that usually makes others think: "hmm, if they are so sure about it there must be something to it."

    alternatively, if you cross an INTJ they might do the same, only in an antagonistic manner. you say "1" and they'll run through the entire numerial sequence, comming back at you accusing you of having said "64763252". This all seems logical and they come off so strongly that only people who know them very well or are equally fanatical in their judgments dare stand up to them.
    hmmm this all sounds like me.
    (but I've already made my mind up....I'm INTP )


    robespierre was probably an INTJ.
    he's an ENTP (I have inside knowledge)
    I don't wanna!

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by booyalab View Post
    he's an ENTP (I have inside knowledge)
    The poster or the actual person?

  4. #84

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    The INTJs I've known IRL are teddy bears. ...as long as you stay on their good side.

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
    Robot Fusion
    "As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Wheeler
    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

  5. #85
    Dhampyr Economica's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
    The mature INTJ is aware of this trap, possibly after years of bashing their heads into society and other people makes them reconsider this process.
    I fear that we have to learn this lesson while young or we'll never learn it because we accumulate too much to regret on that account. (*thinking of my mother* :steam

    Great post, MacGuffin.

    Edit: Oh, and Mendacity: Blackwater may be traumatized (that would be mostly by me :blushing but there are too many INTJs out there doing the same for the behavior to be dismissed as idiosyncratic. Don't believe me? Check out the distribution of answers 7-10 in this poll. So far, 12 out of 16 non-INXJs have answered that in their experience a majority of INTJs suffer from closed-minded certitude. That doesn't mean that there are no exceptions; what it means is that they are just that, exceptions.
    Last edited by Economica; 09-22-2007 at 08:05 AM.

  6. #86
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    Well, after reading THIS thread....I have completed the analyzation of a number of ex's elluding to my having a BLACK HEART reasonable......

    *snicker-snicker

  7. #87
    The elder Holmes Mycroft's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Economica View Post
    I fear that we have to learn this lesson while young or we'll never learn it because we accumulate too much to regret on that account. (*thinking of my mother* :steam

    Great post, MacGuffin.

    Edit: Oh, and Mendacity: Blackwater may be traumatized (that would be mostly by me :blushing but there are too many INTJs out there doing the same for the behavior to be dismissed as idiosyncratic. Don't believe me? Check out the distribution of answers 7-10 in this poll. So far, 12 out of 16 non-INXJs have answered that in their experience a majority of INTJs suffer from closed-minded certitude. That doesn't mean that there are no exceptions; what it means is that they are just that, exceptions.
    Economica, I've bit my figurative tongue up until now, but your INTJ boddhisatva shtick is growing tremendously tiring.

    If your goal is to impress upon others your self-enlightenment by feeding into other types' negative stereotypes of INTJs, I know of other sites where your nonsense would be more appreciated.
    Dost thou love Life? Then do not squander Time; for that's the Stuff Life is made of.

    -- Benjamin Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanack, June 1746 --

  8. #88
    Per Ardua Metamorphosis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackwater View Post
    INTJs tend to "go off" on some spree of their own aligning all kinds of factors (Te) to fit with some end that they conjured up (Ni) and do so with a certitude that usually makes others think: "hmm, if they are so sure about it there must be something to it."
    Maybe I am misunderstanding you, but I don't see what the problem is here. We find out what we want, and then we find out how to get there. Unless you are talking about our perceptions of things that we don't actually control?

    of all the types, INTJs are probably the type to treasure the MBTI the most. i was relieved to find out that i was an entp but it was nowhere near the excitement of some INTJs i've seen on and offline. sometimes i think that the whole myers briggs thing is merely a theater to the INTJs where they revel in the fact that they have been casted for the best part.

    and as such, the only types are chiefly valuable because they confirm the validity of the play.
    While many of us are happy to be INTJ, we by no means always think that we are the best type. MBTI does not give justification to all of our actions. It explains to us why we are so different. We don't enjoy MBTI because it makes us special, we enjoy it because it is a system that helps us understand the things around us, particularly people (which we understand the least). By nature, practically, we love systems.
    "You will always be fond of me. I represent to you all the sins you never had the courage to commit."

    Reason is, and ought only to be the slave of the passions, and can never pretend to any other office
    than to serve and obey them. - David Hume

  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
    Economica, I've bit my figurative tongue up until now, but your INTJ boddhisatva shtick is growing tremendously tiring.

    If your goal is to impress upon others your self-enlightenment by feeding into other types' negative stereotypes of INTJs, I know of other sites where your nonsense would be more appreciated.
    Economica, as I have mentioned, isn't an INTJ. Too confusing to realize what they are, but they're certainly not. Such deprecation in agreement with an ISTP of such little intelligence isn't in our nature.
    I 100%, N 88%, T 88%, J 75%

    Disclaimer: The above is my opinion and mine alone, it does not mean I cannot change my mind, nor does it guarantee that my comments are related to any deep-seated convictions. Take everything I say with a whole snowplow worth of salt and call me in the morning, if you can.

  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Economica View Post
    Edit: Oh, and Mendacity: Blackwater may be traumatized (that would be mostly by me :blushing but there are too many INTJs out there doing the same for the behavior to be dismissed as idiosyncratic. Don't believe me? Check out the distribution of answers 7-10 in this poll. So far, 12 out of 16 non-INXJs have answered that in their experience a majority of INTJs suffer from closed-minded certitude. That doesn't mean that there are no exceptions; what it means is that they are just that, exceptions.
    I'm confused: You say that Blackwater is traumatized by you, but that he's correct about the INTJ behavior he's ranting about and was traumatized by... which you don't exhibit. How did you traumatize him then?

    I never dismissed the behavior Blackwater spoke about as idiosyncratic. In fact, I never addressed that point at all, only took issue with his behavior. Please refrain from putting words in my mouth... or keyboard... as the case may be.

    I'm not sure why you think I was arguing that we don't suffer from this closed-minded certitude. It may certainly be true that we do. I don't think I've known enough INTJs to make a judgment like that, and as I've stated, I'd be hesitant to do so in any case.
    You seem to have confused my distaste for Blackwater's style of putting his point across, with distaste for his point itself.

    I know INTJs can be difficult to deal with. But I think we're still deserving of respect and common courtesy. More importantly, I think we should be able to have discussions about being INTJ without being griefed for it. I, and I think most INTJs, welcome the kind of civilized and more-or-less friendly criticism or explanation of how others sometimes view us that MacGuffin provided. Contrary to popular belief, I think that most INTJs want to have friends and relationships and understanding why people get so frustrated with us will enable us to do that better.

    MBTI is a good tool for understanding people who are different from ourselves, and even for understanding ourselves better. But I think it's easy to fall into the trap of lumping them all together in one group and forgetting that they are individuals. Also, someone's entire personality cannot be summed up by their Myers-Briggs type. No personality test is that comprehensive or accurate.

    I don't mean to offend you (don't you love when people start sentences that way?), but it seems like your anti-INTJ sympathies might be a perfect example of the closed-minded certitude you're talking about. You seem absolutely convinced that it is the case that we do this more than any other type, that the reasoning you've done based on your personal experiences is absolutely correct and pretty unwilling to consider any other possibilities. To the point that you're using an informal internet opinion poll of 16 people to back up your position. Again, I'm sorry if this offends you, but the opinions of 16 perfect strangers gathered in an unscientific manner just doesn't sway me.
    However, if I've misunderstood your position, then I apologize and would welcome clarification.

    Quite frankly, I get more of this closed-minded certitude from the ISTJs in my life than anywhere else. While it can be frustrating, I love them anyway

    "So far, 12 out of 16 non-INXJs have answered that in their experience a majority of INTJs suffer from closed-minded certitude. That doesn't mean that there are no exceptions; what it means is that they are just that, exceptions."

    Truly, what it means... in fact ALL it means, is that 12 out of 16 non-INXJs have answered that in their experience a majority of INTJs suffer from closed-minded certitude. Don't think that just because there are people who agree with you it makes you right, or that it makes your informal internet opinion poll amount to solid empirical data.

    You seem to be saying, "12 non-INXJ people think we do, so therefore we must."

    Ok, the majority of the people who answered your survey agree with you, but there are several reasons that might be. Could it be that's why they took the time to answer? Do you think that 12 out of 16 is truly a representative number of the population? Is it safe to say that if the majority of people think something is true then it is true?

    Actually, this is all a bit academic, I'm not saying you're wrong about it, just that your argument seems to be based more on opinion than fact. Frankly, I think that perhaps the point is really a matter of opinion and cannot be argued about using facts, which is ok too. But please keep in mind that while you are certainly entitled to your opinion, I am not obligated to share it.

    I'm sorry if my reply to your post seems harsh. It is your argument I take issue with, not you yourself. If you can provide more than opinions and what appears to be a prejudice against INTJs I will happily reconsider my position. And I will not give you a patronizing pat on the head and tell you "yes dear, anything you say" just to avoid bruising your ego.
    Last edited by Mendacity; 09-22-2007 at 09:58 PM.

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