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  1. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    When people have responded with reasons why (particularly non-INTJs), the answer is dismissed. Maybe people are intimidated because when they try to tell an INTJ about him or herself they get smacked down. I've experienced this IRL with a very dear friend of mine (and observed it in two other INTJs) and it's difficult to contend with. Do you INTJs realize how hard you are to deal with sometimes? I read a post somewhere that said investing time and energy in someone is a difficult thing for INTJs to do. Do you think it's any easier for other types? From my experience with INTJs, you all often have a prove that you're worthy of me attitude which does seem somewhat arbitrary. I really think that makes things harder for yall in the long run.
    I was thinking about your point and I think you're right in a way. My experience with INTJs is that we have to be convinced of almost everything. And our initial reaction to everything is one of, "oh yeah? Prove it!"

    But it's not that we can't or refuse to be convinced. I see how this reaction can be supremely frustrating and can come off as an unwillingness to accept someone's point... and I think it's probably one of the reasons we're so difficult to deal with.

    In addition to this reaction, which I'm sure is bad enough, you then have to argue the point (every point) with us. Arguing something is how I understand it and people often misunderstand my intentions when I do. I think this is what people mistake for this "closed minded certitude" thing. And I can see how most types would want to say, "you know what? screw this!' when we start in on this arguing-to-understand thing. And I can see how it can be misconstrued as just being difficult or being unwilling to listen to you.

    I would say that the trick to dealing with this kind of behavior on the part of an INTJ (and this is what my best friend does and I think he's the person who understands me best in the world... he's ISTJ, btw) is to not be phased by it. Make your point, tell us why you have come to that conclusion and be prepared to defend it. If your INTJ seems to be antagonistic about the argument don't take it personally, just point it out to them and they will probably apologize and try to be more civilized (assuming you're dealing with a reasonable INTJ). Then back your opinion up with examples. If they respect you they will consider your argument and may end up agreeing with you.

    Obviously this won't work for all INTJs... there are members of every type who are unreasonable, antagonistic, rude or crazy... but I think it will work with most.

    I realize that this post is basically "here's how you need to change your behavior to accommodate us" and that's not really a solution. There may be something we might do to work on it ourselves. I would welcome any suggestions. But don't ask us to just take your word for it... I think that goes against our nature.

  2. #112
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolf View Post
    Well, I guess I'll give you a response, since it does annoy me that you're so ignorant...
    Thanks for humoring me. I decided to respond to you as well. I'm taking Mendacity's advice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wolf View Post
    See, you don't recall anything. Baseless arguments are easy ways to get written off. UHN seems to be a weak-preference INTJ. I will admit that I have yet to see certain tell-tale signs (which, for instance, Nonpareil shows clearly).
    So what you're saying is because Usehername may be a weak on her INTJ preferences, you're using that as proof for her not to be one? What's that about baseless arguments!? Anyone who is 100% anything on any scale is the very definition of unbalanced. That reminds me, don't you have a 100% something in your sig?

    And what I've posted in this thread hasn't been baseless argument. I've made it clear that what I'm describing has been my experience with the INTJs in my life. At least I have the humility to say it's the INTJs I know, while you're the one making blanket statements about what is and isn't INTJ behavior.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wolf View Post
    Actually, your vacuous straw men were disregarded. They weren't worthy of my time. The personal attack was appreciated, though; it's so classy.
    Yeah, I don't deal any of that logic stuff. Use it on another NT. I'm not coming on your territory to fight.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wolf View Post
    Usually I ignore you, but sometimes things are so slow that you annoy me enough for me to respond.
    I won't go into the amount of times I've hit "cancel" in response to something you've said. I think my post count would be increased by about 100. You should thank your lucky stars for my Fe. Please continue ignoring me and we'll get along great.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wolf View Post
    Why bother? There was no reason for me to ever make an effort. It clearly bothers you, but it doesn't bother me in the least.
    But...you just did. I'm not really bothered, I was at first, but I took a shower, relaxed a bit and now I'm chillin and about to go out with my friends.

    I apologize to the other INTJs for derailing the thread. I'll only respond to reasonable INTJs as was suggested.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

  3. #113
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    You know, that's interesting. I actually have a similar skepticism if someone says something that doesn't make sense to me, but I often don't voice it. Sometimes I'll ignore something I disagree with to get along with people, but not really believe it. What I do, though, is go back later and look for information about the point, see if there's any good reason to believe it, and depending on whether I think they can take it, I'll tell them if I still disagree, and why, and ask for clarification. (Although sometimes I'll just avoid the issue, and secretly think they're just deluded and confused.)

    Note that on this message board, I give my self far more room to voice disagreement and criticism, because I don't feel there's as quite as much to lose from doing so, although if a person looks uncomfortable with my disagreement, then I'll revert to not voicing it, and talk about something else (or in more extreme cases, pretending to agree).

    But the thing is, I'll pretty much believe anything, as long as you can explain it in a way that makes sense to me. If I see it, but it doesn't make sense to me, I won't believe it, although I might pretend to depending on the circumstances.

    I'm also reluctant to argue at times, because I tend to believe that it's possible that everyone is correct according to their own views, and there's no reason mine are necessarily more true.

  4. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    Thanks for humoring me. I decided to respond to you as well. I'm taking Mendacity's advice.
    Maybe there's hope for you after all...maybe.

    So what you're saying is because Usehername may be a weak on her INTJ preferences, you're using that as proof for her not to be one? What's that about baseless arguments!? Anyone who is 100% anything on any scale is the very definition of unbalanced. That reminds me, don't you have a 100% something in your sig?
    When did I flat claim it? I think you're delusional again, and it's so common for your type... Again with the arguments that attack the person in an attempt to discredit them. I certainly can't deny your type...

    And what I've posted in this thread hasn't been baseless argument. I've made it clear that what I'm describing has been my experience with the INTJs in my life. At least I have the humility to say it's the INTJs I know, while you're the one making blanket statements about what is and isn't INTJ behavior.
    I never made a blanket statement about what was and wasn't, I made a subjective assessment based on patterns you could not comprehend.

    Yeah, I don't deal any of that logic stuff. Use it on another NT. I'm not coming on your territory to fight.
    Yet you attempt to use it above, failing miserably. Curious.

    I won't go into the amount of times I've hit "cancel" in response to something you've said. I think my post count would be increased by about 100. You should thank your lucky stars for my Fe. Please continue ignoring me and we'll get along great.
    I appreciate your keeping those rushes of senseless, baseless feelings inside. You should learn to do it a bit more, because you seem to see slights outside yourself that you're terribly wrong about. No wonder I have such a hard time with my ENFJ sister-in-law, she must think I'm horrible just as you do.

    I apologize to the other INTJs for derailing the thread. I'll only respond to reasonable INTJs as was suggested.
    Wow, yet another low-grade insult. You're really chalking up the marks with someone, I'm sure. I'm so deeply hurt that I want to go hide in a corner and cry about it. You cut to my very soul, like a hot butter knife through a thick chunk of pork lard. Oh, the pain, it is unbearable.
    I 100%, N 88%, T 88%, J 75%

    Disclaimer: The above is my opinion and mine alone, it does not mean I cannot change my mind, nor does it guarantee that my comments are related to any deep-seated convictions. Take everything I say with a whole snowplow worth of salt and call me in the morning, if you can.

  5. #115
    On a mission Usehername's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolf View Post
    Maybe there's hope for you after all...maybe.


    When did I flat claim it? I think you're delusional again, and it's so common for your type... Again with the arguments that attack the person in an attempt to discredit them. I certainly can't deny your type...


    I never made a blanket statement about what was and wasn't, I made a subjective assessment based on patterns you could not comprehend.


    Yet you attempt to use it above, failing miserably. Curious.


    I appreciate your keeping those rushes of senseless, baseless feelings inside. You should learn to do it a bit more, because you seem to see slights outside yourself that you're terribly wrong about. No wonder I have such a hard time with my ENFJ sister-in-law, she must think I'm horrible just as you do.


    Wow, yet another low-grade insult. You're really chalking up the marks with someone, I'm sure. I'm so deeply hurt that I want to go hide in a corner and cry about it. You cut to my very soul, like a hot butter knife through a thick chunk of pork lard. Oh, the pain, it is unbearable.
    Wolf, I have outright claimed that I'm trying to balance myself and am not an "extreme" INTJ.

    I have much success academically, socially, athletically, musically and in pretty much any domain that I can think of. (Noting that "success" is different than "pwning" b/c I'm no genius, I'm no world-class athlete, etc.). But I'm a balanced, likeable person.
    I think it's desirable to become the best version of ourselves that we can be. This would include, for me as an INTJ, learning to value things that don't at first seem that important to me, but as I grow and learn in life, I recognize their value. (For instance, social interaction, making people feel wanted, valued, etc.)

    I am a weak INTJ (excluding when I'm overtired) and that is something I consider a great accomplishment. I have the positive characteristics of the INTJ but have worked very hard to overcome my natural areas of weakness (such as I see Economica doing with CC and btw Mendacity, I encourage you to do some scouting on previous threads, b/c this is an issue that has been beaten to death and I think Economica's reaction is more than fair; people keep bringing it up).

    Regardless, Wolf, I consider the fact that you see me as a "weak" INTJ due to my explicitly stated value and conscious consideration for others and desire to "pwn the human system" a positive thing.

    I don't want to be the nerd who sits on their computer scoffing at the rest of the world for being unworthy and inferior of me, all the while upset at the fact that I can't seem to find happiness for some reason. (I do want to be a nerd. I don't want to be unhappy at my own undoing.)
    *You don't have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body.
    *Faith is the art of holding on to things your reason once accepted, despite your changing moods.
    C.S. Lewis

  6. #116
    Senior Member htb's Avatar
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    If anyone is looking for a silver lining, INTJs are quite capable of dramatics.

  7. #117
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    Proteanmix
    ... this isn't actually what I was talking about.. but I love it when people take my advice!... I think you guys' discussion has gone past the point of "friendly argument" and careened right around the bend into the territory of mud-flinging. In this kind of situation neither of you will successfully make a point because now there's a bunch of ego and insults involved. Maybe you guys should take a deep breath and start over without all the insults? I dunno, maybe its not worth your time. I probably should just stay out of it.

    I should probably amend my previous post to mention that (as I'm sure I don't have to point out) any time you criticize someone for an aspect of their personality you should be very careful how you phrase things. Most people are sensitive about that kind of thing and it's easy to accidentally offend someone (and I'm no exception to this on either side of the coin). This problem may be compounded when dealing with INTJs for several reasons:
    1. We're not very social and social interactions sometimes have a way of going awry with us.
    2. The INTJs I know and my own experience of being an INTJ is that people often misunderstand you and everyone's kind of asking you why you can't just be normal and telling you how difficult and abnormal you are.
    I know, I know: But I'm not trying to throw a pity-party, just illustrate that we may be hyper-sensitive at times.
    Quote Originally Posted by htb View Post
    If anyone is looking for a silver lining, INTJs are quite capable of dramatics.
    lol! Welcome to INTJ theater.

    Quote Originally Posted by athenian200 View Post
    You know, that's interesting. I actually have a similar skepticism if someone says something that doesn't make sense to me, but I often don't voice it. Sometimes I'll ignore something I disagree with to get along with people, but not really believe it. What I do, though, is go back later and look for information about the point, see if there's any good reason to believe it, and depending on whether I think they can take it, I'll tell them if I still disagree, and why, and ask for clarification. (Although sometimes I'll just avoid the issue, and secretly think they're just deluded and confused.)
    Yes, I think that's a good way of describing it... although very rarely will I keep quiet about a subject just to preserve the relationship (it does occasionally happen though). And generally, when it does it's because I think the person is unreasonable and it's not worth an argument with them because they're not capable of making coherent points or listening to the same from another person. I think it's both a strength and a weakness that INTJs are usually so unwilling to just go along with someone to keep the peace. It certainly does make socializing difficult for us sometimes. Especially because most of the population view attacks on an argument or opinion of theirs as an attack on they themselves.

    Usehername, I think your views on being a "weak INTJ" are pretty good. A "weak INTJ" may be a more balanced person overall. I think that many of us could learn something from this and it might make social situations in our own lives go more smoothly. I don't want to be scoffing at the rest of the world either. Although there are some who deserve it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Usehername View Post
    Mendacity, I encourage you to do some scouting on previous threads, b/c this is an issue that has been beaten to death and I think Economica's reaction is more than fair; people keep bringing it up).
    You're probably right (and it's my own bad for not considering this possibility) that the issue has been beaten to death. I apologize for making a lengthy post on something that has already been covered.
    However, my intention with my post to Economica (the first one) was to correct her falsely attributing to me an argument I never made and to tell her I didn't completely buy her argument and why I felt that way. I felt her response was a bit out of line. How is responding to a dissenting opinion with insults more than fair? Maybe I'm looking at it wrong or there's something I don't understand about the situation, but what Economica seemed to be saying to me was, "INTJs suck except for me because I'm so enlightened and so much better than all of these others." And that strikes me as just the kind of "siting on their computer scoffing at the rest of the world" behavior you mentioned. Please help me understand.
    (This doesn't mean you're wrong, just that I don't understand your point of view on the matter and would like you to clarify it, if you wouldn't mind. I am well aware that I may be completely blind to how my argument may have come off or ignorant of another factor in the situation. The purpose of this response is to clarify to you my position and hope that you will elaborate for me on yours - as was my response to Economica's comment as well- not to insight a fight.... this parenthetical is a result of the back and forth between Economica and I and I'm considering making it my signature.)
    Anyway, that's just my perspective on the matter. However, I am aware that every argument has two sides.
    I do have two questions: There were many issues that went back and forth between Economica and I. Which do people keep bringing up? And what is your suggestion for a better way to have handled it?

  8. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by htb View Post
    If anyone is looking for a silver lining, INTJs are quite capable of dramatics.
    Exactly what I was thinking

  9. #119
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    No actual comments from me, I'm exhausted trying to read through it all.

    But there were some concerns this thread was blowing out of control, but it looks to be settling down now; and I'd prefer to let it run (since there was some good stuff among the dung), if y'all got things back under control. We okay?
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  10. #120
    On a mission Usehername's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mendacity View Post
    You're probably right (and it's my own bad for not considering this possibility) that the issue has been beaten to death. I apologize for making a lengthy post on something that has already been covered.
    However, my intention with my post to Economica (the first one) was to correct her falsely attributing to me an argument I never made and to tell her I didn't completely buy her argument and why I felt that way. I felt her response was a bit out of line. How is responding to a dissenting opinion with insults more than fair? Maybe I'm looking at it wrong or there's something I don't understand about the situation, but what Economica seemed to be saying to me was, "INTJs suck except for me because I'm so enlightened and so much better than all of these others." And that strikes me as just the kind of "siting on their computer scoffing at the rest of the world" behavior you mentioned. Please help me understand.
    (This doesn't mean you're wrong, just that I don't understand your point of view on the matter and would like you to clarify it, if you wouldn't mind. I am well aware that I may be completely blind to how my argument may have come off or ignorant of another factor in the situation. The purpose of this response is to clarify to you my position and hope that you will elaborate for me on yours, not to insight a fight.)
    Anyway, that's just my perspective on the matter. However, I am aware that every argument has two sides.
    I do have two questions: There were many issues that went back and forth between Economica and I. Which do people keep bringing up? And what is your suggestion for a better way to have handled it?
    I only skimmed the earlier stuff; I'll point this out and ask me to read more if it's necessary (i should be studying, which is why i'm nto re-reading now, but i don't mind clarifying if necessary).

    Economica's CC arguments are more self-deprecating than self-serving. She's identified it as a major turning point in her life when she discovered just how much of a stubborn ass she was at points with her CCness. She doesn't want to be a stubborn ass, and so she works hard at discovering the ins and outs to everything CC-related. She wants to better herself.
    I read her post as self-deprecating. Which I thought was intuitive, since she was an INTJ saying this about INTJs. But I see how you could be (what I perceive as) mistaken re: her being holier-than-thou.

    I don't know about the rest of it. I only skimmed it so far.
    *You don't have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body.
    *Faith is the art of holding on to things your reason once accepted, despite your changing moods.
    C.S. Lewis

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