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  1. #101
    only bites when provoked
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    Kickin' ass and pulling no punches. I see I'm not needed here.
    I 100%, N 88%, T 88%, J 75%

    Disclaimer: The above is my opinion and mine alone, it does not mean I cannot change my mind, nor does it guarantee that my comments are related to any deep-seated convictions. Take everything I say with a whole snowplow worth of salt and call me in the morning, if you can.

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metamorphosis View Post
    Yeah, this is generally the case. I had this very discussion with a friend of mine today (ENxP). He had no idea what I was talking about. What most people (who are friends with INTJs) don't understand, though, is that we act very different with close friends than we do when we are on our own.
    Well, while granted I allways knew my INTX dad, I still remember when I meet my husband and friend and intimidating was not my first impression. Off course, my husband was redicurlessly drunk which may explain part of it .
    Verbal IQ Test

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    You appear to have a very limited vocabulary and lack the ability to identify the correct responses for a variety of different questions. A deficient vocabulary can hinder you in many ways; you may struggle to find the correct words when speaking, fail to understand what others are communicating to you, or come across as inarticulate to others.

  3. #103
    Dhampyr Economica's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
    Economica, I've bit my figurative tongue up until now,
    No you haven't. This is the third time you're directly revealing that I am getting to you (first time, second time).

    but your INTJ boddhisatva shtick is growing tremendously tiring. If your goal is to impress upon others your self-enlightenment by feeding into other types' negative stereotypes of INTJs, I know of other sites where your nonsense would be more appreciated.
    Is pleading with me to take my crusade elsewhere really the best you can do to get me to stop? If so, then I'd say out of the two of us you're the one who does most to disparage our type.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wolf View Post
    Economica, as I have mentioned, isn't an INTJ. Too confusing to realize what they are, but they're certainly not. Such deprecation in agreement with an ISTP of such little intelligence isn't in our nature.
    Thank you, Wolf, for this succinct illustration of how the oh-so-rational INTJ will evaluate a statement not on its merit but on subjective criteria such as the regard in which we hold the person making it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mendacity View Post
    ...
    Speaking of limit breaks...

    I'm confused: You say that Blackwater is traumatized by you, but that he's correct about the INTJ behavior he's ranting about and was traumatized by... which you don't exhibit. How did you traumatize him then?
    (Psst, Mendacity, if you want to feign calm objectivity under fire, you should 1) not rant and 2) not project your ranting onto the person who got to you. )

    As I made clear in the thread about closed-minded certitude and as Usehername correctly points out, I believe I suffer from CC but I am working to overcome it.

    I'm not sure why you think I was arguing that we don't suffer from this closed-minded certitude. It may certainly be true that we do.

    (...)

    I don't mean to offend you (don't you love when people start sentences that way?), but it seems like your anti-INTJ sympathies might be a perfect example of the closed-minded certitude you're talking about. You seem absolutely convinced that it is the case that we do this more than any other type, that the reasoning you've done based on your personal experiences is absolutely correct and pretty unwilling to consider any other possibilities. To the point that you're using an informal internet opinion poll of 16 people to back up your position. Again, I'm sorry if this offends you, but the opinions of 16 perfect strangers gathered in an unscientific manner just doesn't sway me.
    You refuse to entertain the notion of CC as an INTJ problem area until it has been scientifically proven? How convenient, seeing as how MBTI isn't scientific.

    Dismissing the poll completely due to its small sample size smacks of defensive rationalization...

    Truly, what it means... in fact ALL it means, is that 12 out of 16 non-INXJs have answered that in their experience a majority of INTJs suffer from closed-minded certitude. Don't think that just because there are people who agree with you it makes you right, or that it makes your informal internet opinion poll amount to solid empirical data.

    You seem to be saying, "12 non-INXJ people think we do, so therefore we must."

    Ok, the majority of the people who answered your survey agree with you, but there are several reasons that might be. Could it be that's why they took the time to answer? Do you think that 12 out of 16 is truly a representative number of the population? Is it safe to say that if the majority of people think something is true then it is true?

    Actually, this is all a bit academic, I'm not saying you're wrong about it, just that your argument seems to be based more on opinion than fact. Frankly, I think that perhaps the point is really a matter of opinion and cannot be argued about using facts, which is ok too. But please keep in mind that while you are certainly entitled to your opinion, I am not obligated to share it.
    ... But, my compliments on your stamina.

    I'm sorry if my reply to your post seems harsh. It is your argument I take issue with, not you yourself. If you can provide more than opinions and what appears to be a prejudice against INTJs I will happily reconsider my position. And I will not give you a patronizing pat on the head and tell you "yes dear, anything you say" just to avoid bruising your ego.
    ... But when Blackwater tells it like it is, you take issue with his style?

  4. #104
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    This thread is very amusing. The OP asked:

    Quote Originally Posted by Metamorphosis View Post
    What is it about us that causes people to think that we are stand-offish, aloof, intimidating, etc.?
    IMO, Economica is one of the few INTJs (on this forum) who seems willing to acknowledge and challenge other INTJs to change this behavior.

    When people have responded with reasons why (particularly non-INTJs), the answer is dismissed. Maybe people are intimidated because when they try to tell an INTJ about him or herself they get smacked down. I've experienced this IRL with a very dear friend of mine (and observed it in two other INTJs) and it's difficult to contend with. Do you INTJs realize how hard you are to deal with sometimes? I read a post somewhere that said investing time and energy in someone is a difficult thing for INTJs to do. Do you think it's any easier for other types? From my experience with INTJs, you all often have a prove that you're worthy of me attitude which does seem somewhat arbitrary. I really think that makes things harder for yall in the long run.

    My two cents and please don't stone me.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

  5. #105
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    Economica
    This post is actually an edit. In the original version I say a lot of the same things, but I try to actually respond to some of your points and I think that's a mistake. Your points are based on your misconceptions and misunderstandings of what I was saying to begin with. I realize that I can be verbose and that my arguments and statements could probably be organized in a better way. So lets try this:

    Our fight:

    (From my perspective, of course)
    1. You jumped down my throat for my response to Blackwater. You attributed to me an argument I never said and then responded to it with your own argument.
    2. I responded with basically three points:
    a) I didn't say that Blackwater was wrong.
    b) While your theory may have merit, I think your argument is weak and here's why.
    c) My criticisms are of your argument alone and should not be taken personally or offensively.
    3. You were offended and responded with a lot of insults and general nastiness.

    What's actually kind of funny about this, is that I wanted to have an actual discussion with you about your CC thing. I think you may be partially right about it, although as I said in another post later on in response to proteanmix:

    Quote Originally Posted by Mendacity View Post
    I was thinking about your point and I think you're right in a way. My experience with INTJs is that we have to be convinced of almost everything. And our initial reaction to everything is one of, "oh yeah? Prove it!"

    But it's not that we can't or refuse to be convinced. I see how this reaction can be supremely frustrating and can come off as an unwillingness to accept someone's point... and I think it's probably one of the reasons we're so difficult to deal with.

    In addition to this reaction, which I'm sure is bad enough, you then have to argue the point (every point) with us. Arguing something is how I understand it and people often misunderstand my intentions when I do. I think this is what people mistake for this "closed minded certitude" thing. And I can see how most types would want to say, "you know what? screw this!' when we start in on this arguing-to-understand thing. And I can see how it can be misconstrued as just being difficult or being unwilling to listen to you.
    I think this may be at least a part of it, although I agree with you that CC is also a part of it. How much of a role each behavior plays is not something I feel we can speculate on and may, in fact probably, varies from individual to individual.

    Your argument:
    1. Your poll is only of 16 people and that's a very small number to draw conclusions from that would be useful in a serious debate. Even if your poll was of 600 people, because it's an opinion poll, all it can prove are 600 people's opinions. I would hesitate to use opinions to back up an argument about what is widely acknowledged to be one of most misunderstood types.
    2. You seem to have fallen in love with your theory and that's part of why it is (in my opinion) somewhat lacking. You're claiming subjective interpretation as empirical fact and instead of actually responding to someone's criticisms of your argument (or, god forbid, actually trying to improve it), you're closing your eyes, putting your fingers in your ears and saying "I'm right and you're wrong!" over and over again at the top of your voice. This is not convincing except that it seems to do a pretty good job of illustrating the kind of behavior you're talking about.

    One thing you might do to strengthen your argument is to maybe use examples from your own life and your own experiences to illustrate your point. I don't think you can generalize about types quite so easily, but I think if you share with people the reasons why you have drawn the conclusions that you have, you might have greater success.

    There is one point of yours that I responded to in my original reply that I will include:
    Quote Originally Posted by Economica View Post
    ... But when Blackwater tells it like it is, you take issue with his style?
    "Telling it like it is" and being rude are two completely different things that people often confuse. It doesn't take any effort at all to say "Listen, this is my stance, I'm not trying to make you feel attacked and I don't mean to offend you" rather than being an ass about things and then hiding behind that whole "Well I'm just telling it like it is!" shtick because you (non-specific "you") skipped "the usual soothing disclaimers," as Blackwater puts it. "Soothing disclaimers" are like oil for the argument. It keeps it running smoothly and it (hopefully) keeps it civil. Also, they can make your intent more clear to the opposite party and help you make your point better understood. Besides, "telling it like it is" is pretty subjective.

    I will also mention that you come off as being self-righteous and holier-than-thou about it. From your profile, other posts and arguments on this thread you seem to be saying "All INTJs suck except for me! I'm soooo superior to other INTJs!" and that's never going to be taken well by others. If you're not actually trying to say that, you may reconsider how you come across.
    In my first response I made a point to apologize for offending you in my previous post. I want to include that point here as well. I am sorry, it wasn't my intent (as I said in that post) to hurt your feelings. Just to have a lively debate about your theory. I doubt I'll be having any debates with you in the future though, because your response yo my post and to others, in fact your general demeanor, has left me pretty cold.

    That's really all I have to say to you on the subject, Economica. I'm sure you'll have some reply that's as snippy and insulting as your last one and I wish you the joy of it.
    Last edited by Mendacity; 09-24-2007 at 04:08 AM.

  6. #106
    Senior Member Dark Razor's Avatar
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    Its the look...

    Btw, I also have the same problem, in school I was often told I looked "evil" or "scary", or "insane". Also at my current job my supervisor becomes very visibly nervous when talking to me (stuttering, sweating, swallowing) and I dont know how to make him more at ease with the situation. Last week I actually had to bite my tongue several time to not laugh out loud at the ridiculousness of the situation,

  7. #107
    only bites when provoked
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    IMO, Economica is one of the few INTJs (on this forum) who seems willing to acknowledge and challenge other INTJs to change this behavior.
    This is merely because Economica is not an INTJ. Reading the responses above further proves it to me. Maybe I, probably J, but there are no signs of any NT. SF is much more likely.

    Do you INTJs realize how hard you are to deal with sometimes?
    Sure.

    From my experience with INTJs, you all often have a prove that you're worthy of me attitude which does seem somewhat arbitrary. I really think that makes things harder for yall in the long run.
    Well, you're good at doing things that make us find you unworthy. I'll admit that I don't get along with anyone of your type (on either side of your fence).

    My two cents and please don't stone me.
    No worries; you've been written off for a long time.
    I 100%, N 88%, T 88%, J 75%

    Disclaimer: The above is my opinion and mine alone, it does not mean I cannot change my mind, nor does it guarantee that my comments are related to any deep-seated convictions. Take everything I say with a whole snowplow worth of salt and call me in the morning, if you can.

  8. #108
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolf View Post
    This is merely because Economica is not an INTJ. Reading the responses above further proves it to me. Maybe I, probably J, but there are no signs of any NT. SF is much more likely.
    Just like Usehername wasn't an INTJ because she didn't hate people like "regular" INTJs? Or was it because she disagreed with you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wolf View Post
    Well, you're good at doing things that make us find you unworthy. I'll admit that I don't get along with anyone of your type (on either side of your fence).
    I guess I pointed out some INTJ flaws and they hit a little too close to home for you. And I don't really care about you not getting along with EFJs, that's you're problem (seems you have a lot of those).

    Quote Originally Posted by Wolf View Post
    No worries; you've been written off for a long time.
    Then I shouldn't have to worry about you responding to me in the future will I? If you have/had issue with me, it probably would've been better to resolve it then and there instead of trying (and a pitiful attempt at that) to be a smart ass now.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

  9. #109
    only bites when provoked
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    Well, I guess I'll give you a response, since it does annoy me that you're so ignorant...

    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    Just like Usehername wasn't an INTJ because she didn't hate people like "regular" INTJs? Or was it because she disagreed with you?
    See, you don't recall anything. Baseless arguments are easy ways to get written off. UHN seems to be a weak-preference INTJ. I will admit that I have yet to see certain tell-tale signs (which, for instance, Nonpareil shows clearly).

    I guess I pointed out some INTJ flaws and they hit a little too close to home for you. And I don't really care about you not getting along with EFJs, that's you're problem (seems you have a lot of those).
    Actually, your vacuous straw men were disregarded. They weren't worthy of my time. The personal attack was appreciated, though; it's so classy.

    Then I shouldn't have to worry about you responding to me in the future will I?
    Usually I ignore you, but sometimes things are so slow that you annoy me enough for me to respond.

    If you have/had issue with me, it probably would've been better to resolve it then and there instead of trying (and a pitiful attempt at that) to be a smart ass now.
    Why bother? There was no reason for me to ever make an effort. It clearly bothers you, but it doesn't bother me in the least.
    I 100%, N 88%, T 88%, J 75%

    Disclaimer: The above is my opinion and mine alone, it does not mean I cannot change my mind, nor does it guarantee that my comments are related to any deep-seated convictions. Take everything I say with a whole snowplow worth of salt and call me in the morning, if you can.

  10. #110
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Dammit I thought I was written off!!!
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

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