• You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community, you will have access to additional post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), view blogs, respond to polls, upload content, and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free, so please join our community today! Just click here to register. You should turn your Ad Blocker off for this site or certain features may not work properly. If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us by clicking here.

[NT] NT! Why are you ASSHOLES?

Scott N Denver

New member
Joined
Apr 25, 2009
Messages
2,898
MBTI Type
INFP
Enneagram
4w5
Replace NT with Phonies and you are quite similar to the main character of that book, albeit much more angry than depressed.

I'm sorry but I don't understand. Also, how would you know or be able to evaluate how angry I am or am not?
 

INTPness

New member
Joined
Jan 22, 2009
Messages
2,157
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
5w4
So if the NTs really feel the things they say then they're not assholes, right? :smoke:

My point exactly. Everyone thinks what OTHER people say is wrong. But, their own thoughts, feelings, visions, values, etc, etc are........perfectly valid. I'm right. You're wrong. You're a meany face. I'm not. You're too caught up with your logic. I don't do that. I value feelings.

Good grief. Do some NT's behave like jerks at times? Sure. I'm sure ALL NT's have things they are working on, me included (and the OP included as well).

YES, NT's tend to be harsh and critical. Yes. It's a fact. Give the feelers a point on the chalkboard. But, the way we think seems right to us just like the ridiculous things that OTHER TYPES do seem right and just to them.

:hi:
 

ajblaise

Minister of Propagandhi
Joined
Aug 3, 2008
Messages
7,914
MBTI Type
INTP
This isn't directly aimed at you but who decides if it's deserved or not? That's a value judgment not an objective statement of truth. I see more NTs saying because it doesn't make logical sense to them there is no logic but that is not the case. Look at this forum and the causes of people's frustrations. Once again this strikes my funny bone, because if the smart people were really smart would this even be an issue? Wouldn't you have outsmarted everyone and got away from the circle of idiots you're surrounded by? What's that quote about the industrious and the stupid being the most dangerous group of people? Constantly figuring out new ways to annoy the nonstupid people and the nonstupid people fall for it every time!

Most people don't take the time to reach an understanding of why something happens in the manner it does. Just the way some of the NTs have said they don't necessarily know why or what they feel, others may not know immediately why or how something should be done the way it is. It's the same thing but aimed in a different direction. And just as you'd want patience and time to figure out what you feel, can't that same patience be extended to others rather than accusations of mental incompetence and harsh criticism? Is the effort even made? Maybe I've had to recant with my tail tucked between my legs enough at this point to tamp down on that reaction.

Yeah, it's definitely a personal judgment call. Doesn't mean I can't still try to get as close to the truth as I can. I don't really think NTs and their sometimes sardonic tendencies are anything serious. Not the same as actual harsh criticism and accusations.
 

poppy

triple nerd score
Joined
May 30, 2009
Messages
2,215
MBTI Type
intj
Enneagram
5
These all came from people that are in their 20's through maybe their 40's. I kid you not.
I discovered pretty quickly that aggressively insensitive comments don't get anything done and often don't have a lot of merit. Even if the point behind them is valid, unless it is verbally backed up with some kind of evidence statements like that don't have any value. Also it became necessary for me to develop my Fi, which I think helps balance out the "people are stupid" thoughts with a kind of abstract but positive regard for people.

Also, to the people who pointed out the lack of objectivity...I apologize if my post was one of those...I was trying to explain that while I agreed with the OP that it is a problem, I think the behavior she described is characteristic of immature NTs (I've never seen it in any people I consider to have well developed personalities), and immature people of any type are likely to behave disagreeably. A lot of posters offered plausible explanations.

(And +1 to proteanmix...who decides who deserves to be mocked?)
 

Alwar

The Architect
Joined
Jun 19, 2009
Messages
922
MBTI Type
INTP
I've long fought the "NTs aren't robots" fight at INTPc...

Most of the time the NT is just young and immature. The older ones get tired of it.

Comforting words here. I was beginning to suspect that many who identify themselves INTP are actually just rules obsessed, factoid regurgitating drones who read the wikipedia article on INTP, saw a picture of Einstein and said "oh that's definately me!"
 

Scott N Denver

New member
Joined
Apr 25, 2009
Messages
2,898
MBTI Type
INFP
Enneagram
4w5
My point exactly. Everyone thinks what OTHER people say is wrong. But, their own thoughts, feelings, visions, values, etc, etc are........perfectly valid. I'm right. You're wrong. You're a meany face. I'm not. You're too caught up with your logic. I don't do that. I value feelings.

Good grief. Do some NT's behave like jerks at times? Sure. I'm sure ALL NT's have things they are working on, me included (and the OP included as well).

YES, NT's tend to be harsh and critical. Yes. Fact. Give the feelers a point on the chalkboard. But, the way we think seems right to us just like the ridiculous things that OTHER TYPES do seem right and just to them.

:hi:

NT's and NF's both comprise about~15% of the [I believe US and maybe as well world] population. Whatever and however either type thinks or feels, both groups will generally be evaluated by standards not of their own. The vast majority of leaders [corporate, military, political, etc] are SJ's [STJ's in particular]. Both groups are outnumbered by _SF_'s. Regardless of the legitimacy or lack there of of our approaches and "values/priorities", we will have to "impress" and "answer to" predominantly non-NT-NF people as we go through life, particularly in the work world. It would behoove one to be aware of what they might think of you [you general not you as in poster] and why.

In response to the title of this thread, lack of [perceived] consideration for others, and to a lesser extent lack of [perceived] concern about others is what I personally think creates a lot of this assessment towards NT's. "You don't care about [me, him, her, whoever], fine then I'm not gonna care about you!" would probably be a good catchphrase to describe that. I think some, especially say SF's, interpret NT words and/or actions as being particularly spiteful and going out of one's way to be mean or hurtful to others. I think that bumps peoples attitudes towards said NT's from "Fine I'm not gonna care about you!" to "that person is such an _sshole!". Of course, NT's don't have a monopoly on such behavior.
 

Kangirl

I'm a star.
Joined
Dec 27, 2008
Messages
1,470
MBTI Type
ENTJ
Huh, there very well may be a few Holden Caulfield's in this thread (main character of The Catcher In The Rye, for those who haven't read it), but Scott N Denver isn't one of the ones coming across as one, imo.

Btw, Scott, I appreciate your NF perspective here, and I don't think you're coming off as depressed or angry, really.
 

Spartacuss

wholly charmed
Joined
Apr 27, 2008
Messages
677
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
5w4
My point exactly. Everyone thinks what OTHER people say is wrong.
...
YES, NT's tend to be harsh and critical. Yes. It's a fact. Give the feelers a point on the chalkboard. But, the way we think seems right to us just like the ridiculous things that OTHER TYPES do seem right and just to them.
Precisely. Now why can't everybody accept this? I haven't found a greater tendency to assholishness among Ts, but that is perhaps because what I find assholish is different from the OP's view. There are awesome and awful folks of both persuasions.
Feelers are certainly not exempt from assholishness. There's no shortage here of anti-NT or T criticism. If I had a dime for every time someone cited their F for their special snowflake "niceness" and compassion, I could retire tomorrow. So why is it so irksome and assholish when NTs do it? Is it that they are more cutting in speech when they bash other types?
 

Scott N Denver

New member
Joined
Apr 25, 2009
Messages
2,898
MBTI Type
INFP
Enneagram
4w5
Huh, there very well may be a few Holden Caulfield's in this thread (main character of The Catcher In The Rye, for those who haven't read it), but Scott N Denver isn't one of the ones coming across as one, imo.

Btw, Scott, I appreciate your NF perspective here, and I don't think you're coming off as depressed or angry, really.

Thanks. I'm from a military background that operates on the attitude of "how do we constructively deal with [whatever the situation is]", and I think its kinda weird/funny/whatever when I try to take that approach and feel like others are trying to derail or ignore it.
 

Spartacuss

wholly charmed
Joined
Apr 27, 2008
Messages
677
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
5w4
I also find the messages to Ts conflicting. On the one hand, they are told that they are feeling-impaired and robotic and therefore lack certain skills with humanity. On the other hand, if they embrace this, they are told to stop acting like they are feeling-impaired and robotic.
 

substitute

New member
Joined
May 27, 2007
Messages
4,601
MBTI Type
ENTP
Haven't you witnessed all the "NTs" that are like, "Oh, I am so Cold" or "Oh, I am emotionally retarded?"

Its like they wear it as a badge of honor. I simply don't understand this.

Why would you be proud of being similar to the autistic?

That's ascribing emotional motivations to people that you've no way of knowing. Just because somebody says something, especially when it's in print, it doesn't automatically mean you can read intentions into that and assume your readings are correct. You're reading that when a person says the above quotations, the only reason they'd say it would be to boast. This is not logical, there are countless other reasons a person might have. In fact, whenever I see it, it comes through to me as far from boasting, but rather more self-deprecating or simply explaining or clarifying certain weaknesses in themselves.

I was bullied badly throughout my school life and, thinking back, I would say that the vast majority of those bullies were F's.

I wouldn't put F/T disagreements down to either one being assholes or having greater or lesser emotional awareness. I think that, from my POV, the difficulties come from people ascribing and attributing to each other the motivations that they only guess that they have/had. Guessing based on their own likely responses. This results in putting words into people's mouths, and at this point, no real communication can happen as people are only hearing what they want to hear, which is whatever confirms their initial assessment. No progress can happen in this situation.

You can be as aware of your emotions as possible, but it still doesn't give you the right to tell me what mine are.
 

INTPness

New member
Joined
Jan 22, 2009
Messages
2,157
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
5w4
NT's and NF's both comprise about~15% of the [I believe US and maybe as well world] population. Whatever and however either type thinks or feels, both groups will generally be evaluated by standards not of their own. The vast majority of leaders [corporate, military, political, etc] are SJ's [STJ's in particular]. Both groups are outnumbered by _SF_'s. Regardless of the legitimacy or lack there of of our approaches and "values/priorities", we will have to "impress" and "answer to" predominantly non-NT-NF people as we go through life, particularly in the work world. It would behoove one to be aware of what they might think of you [you general not you as in poster] and why.

In response to the title of this thread, lack of [perceived] consideration for others, and to a lesser extent lack of [perceived] concern about others is what I personally think creates a lot of this assessment towards NT's. "You don't care about [me, him, her, whoever], fine then I'm not gonna care about you!" would probably be a good catchphrase to describe that. I think some, especially say SF's, interpret NT words and/or actions as being particularly spiteful and going out of one's way to be mean or hurtful to others. I think that bumps peoples attitudes towards said NT's from "Fine I'm not gonna care about you!" to "that person is such an _sshole!". Of course, NT's don't have a monopoly on such behavior.

I understand all that. This thread is just strange. It starts out with an "NT" basically calling out other NT's, without addressing or discussing their own struggle or ability to overcome these same tendencies. That really could have been insightful. It should be assumed, from the way the original post was written, that the OP no longer has these struggles (or that he/she never had those struggles in the first place). If that's the case, then it would be REALLY insightful to the rest of us NT's to hear how the OP overcame those struggles. If the OP is concerned about NT's improving our image/people skills/ability to navigate through life, help us out with telling us how you got past these same struggles, being that you are also an NT.

If, on the other hand, the OP DOES still struggle with these same things, then why is he/she giving us flack for it instead of looking in the mirror?

The thread continues with a bunch of NF's hopping on board. And I appreciate the input. I value NF opinions very much. The shared "N" (and the rarity we have in society) makes it that we have a special connection and can help each other out. I just get frustrated with finger pointing rather than self-reflection/looking in the mirror. If you're an NT and you are certain that you are not a jerk, share your story in a way that helps those NT's who are trying to work through their issues, don't just say, "so many NT's are JERKS" because that tells us that you don't think YOU are a jerk - only that OTHERS are.
 

sculpting

New member
Joined
Jan 28, 2009
Messages
4,148
You know this whole asshole thing seems context specific and worthy of considering the "intent" not just the observed behavior based on sociatal standards.

Some NTs for instance can take the transfer from an academic job to an industry job and do very well. Others could never make the leap.

When surrounded by other NTs thier honest, straightforward, cutting, shape, no fluff approach is perfectly acceptable. It can be highly critical and a bit painful. If the whole world was NTs then they would not be assholes, they would be normal.

When you throw them out into society at large, things can be bumpy and suddenly they are "assholes" for behavior that is thier natural communication style. Yet that communication style is an aspect of the way they think-which is why we hired them in the first place. I need effective accomplishment, intellectual ability and creativity, not a circle arond the campfire and hugs.

Typicaly as long as what they do is nonmalevolent or intentional in nature they are not assholes, just thinkers.
 

substitute

New member
Joined
May 27, 2007
Messages
4,601
MBTI Type
ENTP
You know this whole asshole thing seems context specific and worthy of considering the "intent" not just the observed behavior based on sociatal standards.

I tried that debate with several Feelers, but it went nowhere because they explicitly said that to them, the intent is irrelevant and so is my point of view. They FEEL that I've hurt them, and that's that, and no explanation can take that away, even if the explantion makes it clear and totally proves that they simply misunderstood the situation and that no malice or "badness" was actually going on. Yes, several Feelers have said to me that this is the way they think. So, what can you do then?
 

Fidelia

Iron Maiden
Staff member
Joined
May 31, 2009
Messages
14,497
MBTI Type
INFJ
I think the original intent of this thread was not so much debating Thinking vs Feeling styles, but aimed at a specific subset of the NT population who try to be provocative on purpose and cause damage while doing so.

I tried that debate with several Feelers, but it went nowhere because they explicitly said that to them, the intent is irrelevant and so is my point of view. They FEEL that I've hurt them, and that's that, and no explanation can take that away, even if the explantion makes it clear and totally proves that they simply misunderstood the situation and that no malice or "badness" was actually going on. Yes, several Feelers have said to me that this is the way they think. So, what can you do then?

I think what both Thinkers and Feelers can do is learn how the other is most likely to take things, communicate your intent clearly and meet each other in the middle for communication styles. If I go to Japan, I realize that if I carry on in my usual way I will be considered rude, even if I seem polite in Canada. Therefore, I have to adjust what I do to some socially accepted norms so that I don't close people's minds to the intent and ideas that I am trying to convey. Throwing something out there that is considered very rude just to see the people's reactions in that country is not productive.
 

Scott N Denver

New member
Joined
Apr 25, 2009
Messages
2,898
MBTI Type
INFP
Enneagram
4w5
I understand all that. This thread is just strange. It starts out with an "NT" basically calling out other NT's, without addressing or discussing their own struggle or ability to overcome these same tendencies. That really could have been insightful. It should be assumed, from the way the original post was written, that the OP no longer has these struggles (or that he/she never had those struggles in the first place). If that's the case, then it would be REALLY insightful to the rest of us NT's to hear how the OP overcame those struggles. If the OP is concerned about NT's improving our image/people skills/ability to navigate through life, help us out with telling us how you got past these same struggles, being that you are also an NT.

If, on the other hand, the OP DOES still struggle with these same things, then why is he/she giving us flack for it instead of looking in the mirror?

The thread continues with a bunch of NF's hopping on board. And I appreciate the input. I value NF opinions very much. The shared "N" (and the rarity we have in society) makes it that we have a special connection and can help each other out. I just get frustrated with finger pointing rather than self-reflection/looking in the mirror. If you're an NT and you are certain that you are not a jerk, share your story in a way that helps those NT's who are trying to work through their issues, don't just say, "so many NT's are JERKS" because that tells us that you don't think YOU are a jerk - only that OTHERS are.

I thought this was a very insightful post.

In the spirit of trying to provide something useful, I could not find it but I recall a thread or two or three about "Fetard", and "developing Fe for INT's" or whatever it was called. My recollections of that thread were things like 1) "Don't call people's feelings stupid" and 2) "don't try to invalidate people's feelings or to tell them that there feelings are wrong"
 

substitute

New member
Joined
May 27, 2007
Messages
4,601
MBTI Type
ENTP
you're right fidelia, but in the real world, the majority of people just don't do that and an awful lot can't because they just don't have the wisdom or maturity.

and yet, if that concept was put to them in a completely non-personal way, they'd say they agreed and that this is what they always do.

edit - INTPness there, showing that superior Si that you guys have. Superior to mine, anyway :laugh: "check him out, he's looked back over the facts and prior events and considered things in a linear fashion, analyzed them and presesnted them in a lucid format... wow :wub:" (that's what I thought)
 

Fidelia

Iron Maiden
Staff member
Joined
May 31, 2009
Messages
14,497
MBTI Type
INFJ
True to both. On the other hand, I think that this is one of most useful purposes of forums like this. Knowledge is only valuable if it can be put to use. In real life, there are not nearly as many types people in each of our immediate circles to discuss things with and see how they react. It is also easier here because it is more impersonal and we don't have a history of misunderstandings in real life.

So what is the purpose of discussing issues here if there isn't some kind of practical application in our individual lives?
 
Top