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  1. #171
    loopy Ulaes's Avatar
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    fluffiness is a waste of time and energy.

  2. #172
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    However, I might see the fact that they're lazy and unable to admit it, as the real problem behind what's going on. My view might be that, if they could have a bit more humility about their flaws and be able to speak about them openly, without sugar coating things and making people pretend they haven't noticed those flaws so that nobody mentions them directly, then maybe they'd be able to address those flaws in a more direct way, and maybe it'd remove the bullshit screen that stands between them and recognizing that when they tell themselves they're not doing any reading tonight for their course, this is just laziness talking and not all the valid justifications that they give themselves and their friends politely agree with.
    Can you tell me how that hypothetical statement was sugar-coated or a "bullshit screen"? It would not have been intended as such and I would find someone who interpreted it like that to be a bit off. I view it as an (not the only) approach to addressing some of the things you brought up. It sounds pretty innocuous and well meaning to me, and I want to understand how it could be commonly interpreted otherwise. I would really rankle if someone said I didn't get my PhD (a feat in itself!) because I was lazy. What if they had personal issues happening that were distractions? What if they just didn't want it anymore? There are a lot of what ifs involved. The assumption (and the problem I think) is attributing not attaining the degree to laziness. It may or may not be the reason, but unless I knew otherwise I'd be hesitant to just say this is why you didn't do this with any certainty which is why I would start the discussion with an open-ended question instead of a statement of fact.

    My ultimate goal would be to find out why and help the person attain their goal not to politely enable them. Once again, I think that how you approach the situation should depend on what you know about the person and how they respond. I really don't know what to say if people perceive that approach as insincere but I would say it's more problematic for those who automatically interpret similar statements as insincere than the ones making them. I'd say if this seems to be the person's typical way of interacting with people then I'd assume it was sincere and honest and deal with it with that in mind.

    The thing about bringing up people's "flaws" to them is they may not be ready to confront them or even see them. I think I mentioned self-blindness earlier in the thread. I know all about trying to get people to see their flaws (what I perceive to be their flaws...if they are or aren't is debatable) and more often than not it's met with resistance and denial. So then we're moving into the territory of how you tell someone something unsavory about themselves without getting yourself beheaded. Do most people respond with you pointing out what they do wrong with grace, humility, and calm acceptance? If I'm going to do this (most people its not even worth it because I'm not invested enough in them to bother) I try to figure out their reactions first and work from those.

    I think that facing the naked truth about yourself is about the most constructive thing a person can do. Maybe I see not just the laziness but the pride that's at the root of them being hurt when someone points it out, as big problems that stand in the way of their achieving what they want to.
    I agree with this. I'm also thinking that seeing the naked truth about oneself is a very personal thing that the individual must be ready to accept and their is a certain amount of dealing with it on their own that is inherent to the process. Outside (well-meaning) attempts can be like salt in the wound. That's when I think it matters how something gets said matters so much when dealing with these matters.

    I wouldn't bother speaking to most people this way, because I know they're not capable of responding to it constructively. So that's why, with most people, I've learned to either keep my opinions to myself and not answer anything (and shrug it off when they get mad at me for that and read their own things into it), or if I'm asked for one, I'll give it my way. If they wanted a touchy feely opinion, they shouldn't have come to me.
    There seems to be a lot of things read into the Fe-ish comments that weren't there so this really cuts both ways I suppose.

    I can't talk for all NT's but for me, yes, I do have very frank and open discussions about my bad points on a regular basis.
    With whom? How they say things doesn't matter at all? If they're privy to personal and intimate knowledge about you I would view them as being in the greatest position to do the most harm and most good so I would be more sensitive to how they say things. Random Joe and Jane Blow on the street I wouldn't give two shits about but someone I care about cutting into me would be a. It all depends on the spirit and context in which it's done so in a frank and honest discussion I still expect respect and no low blows.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
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  3. #173
    WTF is this dude saying? A Schnitzel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edge View Post
    fluffiness is a waste of time and energy.
    That's the last time I'm giving you extra foam in your latte.
    Quote Originally Posted by prplchknz View Post
    sheesh humans! for realz

  4. #174
    wholly charmed Spartacuss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    What type of adjustment are we talking about here? What would a reasonable adjustment be if you're dealing with similarly reasonable people? What Ne-monster said her INTJ friend said to her is something I could handle coming from someone I know well and know their intentions, even though it would initially sting.
    I question whether I'm dealing with reasonable people sometimes. A common scenario is that I disagree about how to solve a problem, and because I seem to be approaching it from a technical rather than a sympathetic angle, the determination is made that I am an unsympathetic person. From there, everything I say is adjudged through the lens that I'm evil incarnate and trying to make them aware of how cool I think this is when this is far from the truth.
    E.g. one bleeding heart acquaintance was talking about a problem common to a certain part of the world, and very upset about it. I appreciated that she wanted to help, but thought her method wouldn't help and would probably hurt. I make an alternative suggestion. She promptly informs me I need to consider these poor people. how are hysterics any better? I eventually get somewhere by pointing out we both want to help but disagree on how to go about it. From then, everything I say is judged thru the lens that I'm a less caring person than she is.

    The knack for reaching quick unfounded decisions about how much I do or don't care about something based on how the words and demeanor match up to their standards of appropriate feeliness means that to avoid this I do not engage in certain discussions with some people unless I know they'll take the effort to really go on a long nonjudgmental walk thru the woods on the issue. With people who know better (friends, e,g, quite a few of them feelers!), it's not as exhausting because there's less of a need to jump thru what strikes me as irrational hoops.
    Ti (43); Ne (41.8); Te (33.7); Fi (30.5); Ni (27.5); Se (24.7); Si (21.5); Fe (17.3)
    The More You Know the Less You Need. - Aboriginal Saying

  5. #175
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Spart I get that and thank you for explaining what you meant.

    It's kinda funny to me that thatgirl started the in such an incendiary manner and then got all these emotional reactions and then people are saying they'd rather get this exact type of thing then something more neutral. Not sugar-coated and wrapped in cotton candy, but neutral. To me, it's very similar to Ne-monster's friend's comment. I'm interpreting mixed messages. The general reactions reinforces my belief people don't like negative character judgments made against them brought to their attention in any ol way, but if it's true it's OK doesn't matter how it's said? The defensive reactions to the thread says otherwise.

    Perhaps because it's not true or because individuals don't want to be lumped into a category and associated with negative characteristics they don't have. IOW, their (possible) flaws are being brought up to them in a manner that is putting them on the defensive and going in circles. The thread is the embodiment of how I'm saying most people don't like to be engaged.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

  6. #176
    wholly charmed Spartacuss's Avatar
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    Oh I don't have a problem with the in your faceness of the OP's thread. I just disagree with the conclusion she started (!) with and wonder why the things she complains of bothers her. I prefer this call-out to the passive aggressive sniping I've seen elsewhere. But it means we can respond in like direct fashion.
    Ti (43); Ne (41.8); Te (33.7); Fi (30.5); Ni (27.5); Se (24.7); Si (21.5); Fe (17.3)
    The More You Know the Less You Need. - Aboriginal Saying

  7. #177
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spartacuss View Post
    Oh I don't have a problem with the in your faceness of the OP's thread. I just disagree with the conclusion she started (!) with and wonder why the things she complains of bothers her. I prefer this call-out to the passive aggressive sniping I've seen elsewhere. But it means we can respond in like direct fashion.
    So a more neutral, direct, but open-ended OP?
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

  8. #178
    wholly charmed Spartacuss's Avatar
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    That works!
    Ti (43); Ne (41.8); Te (33.7); Fi (30.5); Ni (27.5); Se (24.7); Si (21.5); Fe (17.3)
    The More You Know the Less You Need. - Aboriginal Saying

  9. #179
    wholly charmed Spartacuss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    Originally Posted by substitute
    Proteanmix - for me that would be an enormous adjustment, I'd feel like I was just not even being myself but just reading a script someone else had written for me, and I'd be thinking whilst reading it, "who writes this stuff??"
    Well this is interesting. Do other NTs feel like this as well?
    OMG. I missed this. The answer is a definitive YES.
    Not that specific example, but you get the drift.

    here's the funny thing: when i have tried that, people see right thru the attempt at putting it more "nicely." Result: a diagnosis of condescension and insincerity.
    to add to the pure evil of course.
    Ti (43); Ne (41.8); Te (33.7); Fi (30.5); Ni (27.5); Se (24.7); Si (21.5); Fe (17.3)
    The More You Know the Less You Need. - Aboriginal Saying

  10. #180
    HAHHAHHAH! INTJ123's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThatGirl View Post
    Seriously,

    Don't give me this I am so out of touch with my emotions crap. You are all smart people. You understand MBTI. So why, with all your knowledge are you so goddamn proud at your dysfunction and assholery? You would think, if you were a real NT, that you would be ashamed at what you have not perfected.
    You know you are right, but you are over generalizing that all NTs are like this. It's not uncommon for an NT to be wearing an NF mask in their later years. The ones you speak of are probably just young and immature.

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