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  1. #161
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    I seldom see people making as much effort as I do to speak clearly, to actually LISTEN to my WORDS and give them no other value than that which the dictionary gives them. It's as if most people are just putting subtitles under what I say as fast as I'm saying it... I don't get what all the resistance is to simply taking a person at their word, rather than reading all kinds of imaginary subtexts into what they say!?

    Cos 10% of a lot of people criticizing you and blackening you all the time... really hurts.
    hahaha, the irony of this statement.... yikes.

    to you sub.

  2. #162
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    Remember my P part. Good enough is enough. Not intended to be cruel, or you'd be crying like a stereotypical INFP by now.

  3. #163
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ne-Monster View Post
    Actually from her it would have been really odd as she just says those things, so I would have wondered if she was feeling okay.

    However-since you rephrased it-that freaks me the hell out. If someone said that to me i would spend the next two weeks trying to figure out what they really meant, and what they really thought of me. I would question what distractions they were talking about and well, what did they think of those distractions, and I wonder if they were worthy distractions, and maybe they dont really think I could do it, but are just being nice. And was I not successful before, case I thought I did a good job, ??? and maybe they are implying that right now I am not good enough at the job I am doing, so want me to leave so they can replace me and are just trying to get me to go to grad school so I'll move on? Then I woukld feel massive guilt at being a failure and guilt that I was too lazy, and then try and figure out what the person really meant.

    No shit. Ne goes nuts when I get Fe statements like that. They are so sweet, yet????
    This thread gets more and more interesting! I wouldn't think twice about someone saying what I said to me. Whoa, this is a little scary. I wouldn't think that deeply about it and I would keep the statement in the realm of exactly what was said is what was meant.

    Since I know getting a PhD is hard work that would be my way of encouraging you. If all these misunderstandings arise out of basic statements I can see why people are so frustrated. Another benefit to most people being sensors due to less inclination to read into things.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

  4. #164
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    My reasons for this is because it would not put the person on the defensive by making character attacks ("if you weren't so lazy") and it opens up a dialogue for things such as why couldn't the person succeed the first time around, what was going on at the time, and how those obstacles could be avoided in the future. I would view couching my inquiry in that way as both constructive and productive.
    However, I might see the fact that they're lazy and unable to admit it, as the real problem behind what's going on. My view might be that, if they could have a bit more humility about their flaws and be able to speak about them openly, without sugar coating things and making people pretend they haven't noticed those flaws so that nobody mentions them directly, then maybe they'd be able to address those flaws in a more direct way, and maybe it'd remove the bullshit screen that stands between them and recognizing that when they tell themselves they're not doing any reading tonight for their course, this is just laziness talking and not all the valid justifications that they give themselves and their friends politely agree with.

    I think that facing the naked truth about yourself is about the most constructive thing a person can do. Maybe I see not just the laziness but the pride that's at the root of them being hurt when someone points it out, as big problems that stand in the way of their achieving what they want to.

    I wouldn't bother speaking to most people this way, because I know they're not capable of responding to it constructively. So that's why, with most people, I've learned to either keep my opinions to myself and not answer anything (and shrug it off when they get mad at me for that and read their own things into it), or if I'm asked for one, I'll give it my way. If they wanted a touchy feely opinion, they shouldn't have come to me.

    I can't talk for all NT's but for me, yes, I do have very frank and open discussions about my bad points on a regular basis. Whilst when I was younger I didn't take things as well as I ought to have, it's been a long time since I've got upset over someone pointing out a bad point I have... mostly cos I'm so used to talking about them directly and openly, that there aren't many that you could surprise me with to even be upset over. And I have a sense of humour about myself.

    I had a friend at school who was very sensitive about this kinda thing, you always had to couch things and sugar coat them for her. She was uptight and really square, and very unadventurous and had no backbone. She needed a job, and I had one at a video store, so she asked if I'd talk to the manager to get her a job. I said I wasn't sure she would like working there (she's an ISFJ), cos the atmosphere's quite boisterous amongst the mostly male staff, and the women there were pretty plain speaking too. But she said she needed the money and was tougher than I thought, so I got her the job.

    She spent the first few months feeling ruthlessly mocked and ribbed all day long, thinking everyone hated her and was trying to get at her - she didn't notice that they spoke like that to each other too, and yet were all great pals, she was too busy feeling like the victim. She stuck at the job partly though needing the money and partly through not having the balls for the confrontation that "might" happen if she said she wanted to quit. I moved town and we lost touch for a while.

    Next time I saw her, she'd completely loosened up. She was way happier and more relaxed, and had learned to laugh at herself good naturedly and allow others to do so too without taking it as an attack. She said on Facebook the other day that the most valuable experience in her life was working at that video store, because it taught her to stop pinning the responsibility for her subjective feelings onto everyone else. She worked at that store for over three years, eventually adapting and finding her feet and her confidence in herself, realizing that the others were just kidding around or offering what they considered useful information, and ending up area manager for a while. She's still in touch with those same people who she was so sure were nasty, mean and hurtful to start with, two of them were her bridesmaids and one is her child's godfather.
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

    "When it all comes down to dust
    I will kill you if I must
    I will help you if I can" - Leonard Cohen

  5. #165
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    Is it fair that I should shoulder the responsibility for the emotional responses of these people?
    No. I never take responsibility for these types of things, and if I'm pressured to, I will resort to calling someone a "sensitive crybaby."

    In most cases, if I'm called on something, I can immediately see how my phrasing might have been interpreted differently than the way I intended, and I apologize and explain what I really meant. There are those times, though, when people are just unreasonably sensitive, and no amount of explaining will convince them otherwise. It shouldn't be assumed that in every case, the person offended is in the right and should therefore be sympathized with. Unfortunately, this seems more often than not to be the default attitude of those around you.
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

  6. #166
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    I am kind of Fe blind. The one enfj I worked with I drove crazy, to the point where everytime she talked to me she would twitch a little. (I am an enfp mostly)

    She would say things that would offend me due to the unspoken implications which I felt were there. It's totally me being neurotic in some level, bt I think there is some meat to this as well.

    here's an example:

    "well, irresponsbile single moms are the reason I couldn't get grants dring college"-right after I told her that I got lots of grants for being a single mom

    Another Fe example:

    I was at the playground with my toddler. Another mom sits down next to me a few feet away. Very Fe dom, but not sure Ne or Se. She is saying really sweet Fe type stuff to her little girl, then starts talking about how good a job the little girl did cleaning her teeth. I was like WTF?

    Then I realized my son was right beside her daughter. He has brown stains from two baby cavities in his front teeth. They are sealed and are fine but looks a little odd.

    But why SAY something like that? It was almost like she could not help but make a statement that passed judgement without really being straightforward about it.

    Now THAT hurt my feelings far more than any NT remark. wierd stuff huh?

    PS (I do love ENFJ work from a distance though. You guys do awesome stuff.)

    (and just in my defense, my project sucked, I was depressed and my brain had retreated to a state of near mental retardation due to long term hypothyroidism. I also am a big ass P and didnt have enough long term stamina to keep banging my head against a wall on meaningless work-all which validly translates into "work harder" for an INTJ )

  7. #167
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ne-Monster View Post
    Actually from her it would have been really odd as she just says those things, so I would have wondered if she was feeling okay.

    However-since you rephrased it-that freaks me the hell out. If someone said that to me i would spend the next two weeks trying to figure out what they really meant, and what they really thought of me. I would question what distractions they were talking about and well, what did they think of those distractions, and I wonder if they were worthy distractions, and maybe they dont really think I could do it, but are just being nice. And was I not successful before, case I thought I did a good job, ??? and maybe they are implying that right now I am not good enough at the job I am doing, so want me to leave so they can replace me and are just trying to get me to go to grad school so I'll move on? Then I woukld feel massive guilt at being a failure and guilt that I was too lazy, and then try and figure out what the person really meant.

    No shit. Ne goes nuts when I get Fe statements like that. They are so sweet, yet????

    Amen to that! That's what Fe does to me too, sends me on spirals of "wtf was THAT supposed to mean??" And you start to think that everything the person says to you is just a mask of what they really meant, and since they're not giving you any direct or clear feedback of what they really think of you, you go on spirals of "I think they hate me", and just this vibe of disapproval masked with smiles and sugar... lol gives me the creeps and demoralizes me like nothing else!!!
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

    "When it all comes down to dust
    I will kill you if I must
    I will help you if I can" - Leonard Cohen

  8. #168
    Senior Member BlahBlahNounBlah's Avatar
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    I have Fe, and I'm not passive-aggressive. I actually hate passive-aggressive people.

  9. #169
    Once Was Synarch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ne-Monster View Post
    "well, irresponsbile single moms are the reason I couldn't get grants dring college"-right after I told her that I got lots of grants for being a single mom
    ENFJ's can be so pushy and free with their loaded views on how things are. They're like everyone's tempestuous Mom.
    "Create like a god, command like a king, work like a slave."

  10. #170
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlahBlahNounBlah View Post
    I have Fe, and I'm not passive-aggressive. I actually hate passive-aggressive people.
    i think every function has a diff flavor depending upon dom, aux or tert. So tert Fe has a very different feel from dom Fe. Tert Fe has been really fascinating to me lately as I get watch a bunch of estps and entps in my company.

    It is fascinating to see how different folks grow it in and use it. The diversity is really neat. I'd imagine all the functions in tert may be like this if you look for it.

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