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  1. #151
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Spartacus - I'm not saying you have to make the main communication adjustments if they are tourists in T country. I'm saying that rather than laughing at their errors, just tell them what's most likely to cause problems and how to step around them. If you are visiting F country, they should do the same for you. Much of my frustration in communicating with TJs is that I do not know how to go on.

  2. #152
    Member ghoti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    When Feelers go to T country it is like me going to Germany and needing to understand that bluntness does not equal mean-ness.
    That actually reminds me of my college art professor from Germany. Everyone in the class hated him and thought he was mean because he wasn't constantly praising their half-assed work. I actually preferred his straight-forward criticism, because that's the style of teaching that helped me improve the most. I'm also pretty certain he was an INTJ.

  3. #153
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spartacuss View Post
    It gets tiring as all hell to ALWAYS ALWAYS be the one having to adjust communication style. A LOT of feelers seem to think that it must be the NTs fault since they, being Fs, are naturally in the right in approaching a human situation. I'm willing to work with people, but I'm not willing to accept their starting point that assumes that the NT is the one who needs to re-evaluate how s/he communicates.
    What type of adjustment are we talking about here? What would a reasonable adjustment be if you're dealing with similarly reasonable people? What Ne-monster said her INTJ friend said to her is something I could handle coming from someone I know well and know their intentions, even though it would initially sting. Some random person/NT making the same remark would be met with a much different reaction and a few choice words. I'm definitely not of the school that Fs are naturals in terms of relationships, I think there are predispositions but those require cultivation. In my current situation I've marveled at how sensitive my INTP brother has been towards my mother's needs and how comforting my INTJ friend has been.

    I know it's possible and can be done so the resistance is something that's puzzling to me. I can work with an honest effort, but outright dismissal gives me nothing. But the thing is do people recognize efforts in situations like this or are they already closed off? Take Ne-monster's example, I think a reasonable adjustment if you were still going to make the same comment is "Have you thought about going for your PhD again? Maybe there are less distractions in your life right now that would allow you to complete it successfully." Is that such a major adjustment to make?
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

  4. #154
    Senior Member Scott N Denver's Avatar
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    Lest anyone want to simply write this problem off solely to T-F differences, let me say
    1) I've almost never had issues with ISTJ's
    2) I've definitely heard NT's make comments with "strong words" about other NT's, likewise NT's and ST's.

    More potentially objectionable behavior: INTJ's responding to situations with "I'm right, I know I'm right, I've thought a lot about this", INTJ's masterminding plans but then not actually putting forth work themselves to forward those plans, INTJ's criticizing others for not implementing the INTJ's plans fast enough even if the INTJ's plans weren't that realistic/doable/practical in the first place

  5. #155
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlahBlahNounBlah View Post
    It wouldn't have bothered me either, but I can see how it could bother someone else. I would have phrased it differently just because of the huge possibility for misinterpretation.


    It's more convenient to take a second to change your wording than to deal with a massive dramatic fallout.
    In many situations, granted. But when dealing with friends and family who are supposed to know you, I don't think it's reasonable to have to keep changing the way you express yourself. The way I see it, when it's people who choose to be close to you, those are the people you should feel at ease with, to be able to be yourself and just speak freely and naturally without having to couch things or reword things to avoid offence. There should be a trust between such people, so that the very last thing either of you would expect would be that the other one meant any offence.

    Proteanmix - for me that would be an enormous adjustment, I'd feel like I was just not even being myself but just reading a script someone else had written for me, and I'd be thinking whilst reading it, "who writes this stuff??"

    It's difficult to adjust to such great differences whilst still remaining true to yourself. That's where the resistance comes from - the fear that what's being expected of me is that I change who I am and become someone else, in order to accommodate a point of view I don't actually agree with, much as I respect the person's right to hold it.
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

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  6. #156
    triple nerd score poppy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott N Denver View Post
    More potentially objectionable behavior: INTJ's responding to situations with "I'm right, I know I'm right, I've thought a lot about this", INTJ's masterminding plans but then not actually putting forth work themselves to forward those plans, INTJ's criticizing others for not implementing the INTJ's plans fast enough even if the INTJ's plans weren't that realistic/doable/practical in the first place

    Just kidding. Yeah, I've probably done the first, but not so much the others. If I want something done I'll put the effort in. I don't know about other INTJs but I think generally the J tendencies would prevent us from sitting back and getting pissed off when we don't see results.
    Just out of curiosity, under what kinds of circumstances have you seen INTJs letting other people carry out their plans? Are they in a supervising position at work, or is it in a more casual environment?

  7. #157
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    It's difficult to adjust to such great differences whilst still remaining true to yourself. That's where the resistance comes from - the fear that what's being expected of me is that I change who I am and become someone else, in order to accommodate a point of view I don't actually agree with, much as I respect the person's right to hold it.[/QUOTE]

    No one wants you to change who you are. Here is an example. Profanity may effectively and forcefully or humorously get a message across in a colorful/memorable or curt way. Depending on your audience, it may be totally appropriate for you to use.

    However, if used in the wrong venue, it will turn your audience off to what you are saying and also make you look foolish because you are not adjusting to the social situation. Some people prefer to express their message with profanity. Some without profanity.

    Does it really change who you are or what you have to say? No, but you have to decide which language set is appropriate to which group of people. The ultimate goal is getting your point across in a way your listeners understand, and which will have a lasting effect on them.

    This seems to be more an issue of resentment towards someone affecting how you speak or act. Is this about who decides that something is offensive or inappropriate and you being concerned that you are being told what to do?

  8. #158
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    Proteanmix - for me that would be an enormous adjustment, I'd feel like I was just not even being myself but just reading a script someone else had written for me, and I'd be thinking whilst reading it, "who writes this stuff??"
    Well this is interesting. Do other NTs feel like this as well? I guess this is a bigger problem then I thought. Using that statement as an example, I wouldn't think rephrasing it a big deal. My reasons for this is because it would not put the person on the defensive by making character attacks ("if you weren't so lazy") and it opens up a dialogue for things such as why couldn't the person succeed the first time around, what was going on at the time, and how those obstacles could be avoided in the future. I would view couching my inquiry in that way as both constructive and productive. And I do think that if the person had gotten upset with me for saying something like that I wouldn't consider them hypersensitive. That statement is harsh as far as I'm concerned. I'm exaggerating this a bit, but can I assume I can say equally as mean things to NTs about their sore spots and weaknesses it will be well-received and laughed off? I'm going to try this very soon but I can predict how my responses will be.

    Also, can you tell me what would be constructive and productive about the more "natural" NT way? I will say that sometimes I think people need that strong jolt statements like that can arouse in order to get people moving. But that seems like such an iffy motivator if the purpose was motivation to begin with. What would the purpose of saying it like that be? Like I said, harsher statements between family and friends may be more tenable, but not between someone I know casually.

    I remember when I came home during my sophomore year of college during winter break and before saying hello or anything my INTP brother said to me "Your ass is spreading like rumors," and I was on the verge of tears BUT it did help me to take a look at my weight gain. I think it's funny now and I'll tell it to anybody, but it was hard when he said it. Like I said, I find that to be just as likely to demotivate and put people on the defensive but if it works for NTs and people respond positively to this then continue as you have.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

  9. #159
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    No one wants you to change who you are.
    Ha. YOU don't, and bless you for that. But there are a lot of people who do...

    Here is an example. Profanity may effectively and forcefully or humorously get a message across in a colorful/memorable or curt way. Depending on your audience, it may be totally appropriate for you to use...
    That's different. Profanity's more obvious. Simply avoiding the use of the F word is a whole world away from completely rephrasing everything I say into sentences laced with fake emotional subtexts that I neither feel nor agree with.

    Does it really change who you are or what you have to say? No, but you have to decide which language set is appropriate to which group of people. The ultimate goal is getting your point across in a way your listeners understand, and which will have a lasting effect on them.
    Nobody knows this more than me; I've spent my lifetime studying linguistics and socio-linguistics, and I know I take more care than most to say EXACTLY what I mean. And since what I mean carries no ill will, malice or offence, there's no reason why expressing it clearly and precisely should give the impression that it does. My point though, is that regardless of how careful you are, there are always those people who just read whatever they want into your words. In such cases, it's not fair that I should be the one held responsible for the misunderstanding, or that I should be required to adapt even further in order to accommodate their flaws.

    I seldom see people making as much effort as I do to speak clearly, to actually LISTEN to my WORDS and give them no other value than that which the dictionary gives them. It's as if most people are just putting subtitles under what I say as fast as I'm saying it... I don't get what all the resistance is to simply taking a person at their word, rather than reading all kinds of imaginary subtexts into what they say!?

    This seems to be more an issue of resentment towards someone affecting how you speak or act. Is this about who decides that something is offensive or inappropriate and you being concerned that you are being told what to do?
    Partially. But also a large part of it is that I resent being held responsible for other people's perceptions and emotions. I deal with a LOT of people, ALL the time. I mean really, a lot. Each week I probably see and talk to over a hundred different people, some regulars, some occasionals, some new and of those I never know who I'll be seeing again. In general, I have no problems with communicating, and have won awards for my people skills.

    Part of what makes me good with people (I've had it said in reviews and reports) is my ability to "shift gears" between formal and informal and shades in between, thereby creating a sense of openness and relaxation that most people respond very well to.

    But yet, if only say, 10% of the people I meet decide to take umbridge at the way I express myself, that's still ten people in one week demonizing me - for what? Being too clear? Is it fair that I should shoulder the responsibility for the emotional responses of these people?

    Cos 10% of a lot of people criticizing you and blackening you all the time... really hurts.
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

    "When it all comes down to dust
    I will kill you if I must
    I will help you if I can" - Leonard Cohen

  10. #160
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    What type of adjustment are we talking about here? What would a reasonable adjustment be if you're dealing with similarly reasonable people? What Ne-monster said her INTJ friend said to her is something I could handle coming from someone I know well and know their intentions, even though it would initially sting. Some random person/NT making the same remark would be met with a much different reaction and a few choice words. I'm definitely not of the school that Fs are naturals in terms of relationships, I think there are predispositions but those require cultivation. In my current situation I've marveled at how sensitive my INTP brother has been towards my mother's needs and how comforting my INTJ friend has been.

    I know it's possible and can be done so the resistance is something that's puzzling to me. I can work with an honest effort, but outright dismissal gives me nothing. But the thing is do people recognize efforts in situations like this or are they already closed off? Take Ne-monster's example, I think a reasonable adjustment if you were still going to make the same comment is "Have you thought about going for your PhD again? Maybe there are less distractions in your life right now that would allow you to complete it successfully." Is that such a major adjustment to make?

    Actually from her it would have been really odd as she just says those things, so I would have wondered if she was feeling okay.

    However-since you rephrased it-that freaks me the hell out. If someone said that to me i would spend the next two weeks trying to figure out what they really meant, and what they really thought of me. I would question what distractions they were talking about and well, what did they think of those distractions, and I wonder if they were worthy distractions, and maybe they dont really think I could do it, but are just being nice. And was I not successful before, case I thought I did a good job, ??? and maybe they are implying that right now I am not good enough at the job I am doing, so want me to leave so they can replace me and are just trying to get me to go to grad school so I'll move on? Then I woukld feel massive guilt at being a failure and guilt that I was too lazy, and then try and figure out what the person really meant.

    No shit. Ne goes nuts when I get Fe statements like that. They are so sweet, yet????

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