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  1. #141
    Senior Member INTPness's Avatar
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    I love all of you NF's and NT's. As long as you're being constructive, then we can get along. Come on...group hug everyone. The NF's should probably lead the hug-giving ceremony though, or we might end up with the NT's explaining why hugs aren't logical.

  2. #142
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    I tried that debate with several Feelers, but it went nowhere because they explicitly said that to them, the intent is irrelevant and so is my point of view. They FEEL that I've hurt them, and that's that, and no explanation can take that away, even if the explantion makes it clear and totally proves that they simply misunderstood the situation and that no malice or "badness" was actually going on. Yes, several Feelers have said to me that this is the way they think. So, what can you do then?
    I hear you. I have had Ts hurt my feelings in the past. The best was when my favorite INTJ told me I'd have finished my pHd if I wasnt so lazy and worked harder. I stopped for five seconds in shock. Then I just laughed hysterically. She was correct and didnt mean to be an ass, but that's just who she is. I have developed my T filter which takes what you guys say, contextualizes it, then processes it.

    Maybe I hang too much with NTs though, as touchy feeler nicities do annoy me. I need honest critical thought. I find ISFJs to be the hardest to convince this to. However I may overuse Te...

  3. #143
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    True to both. On the other hand, I think that this is one of most useful purposes of forums like this. Knowledge is only valuable if it can be put to use. In real life, there are not nearly as many types people in each of our immediate circles to discuss things with and see how they react. It is also easier here because it is more impersonal and we don't have a history of misunderstandings in real life.

    So what is the purpose of discussing issues here if there isn't some kind of practical application in our individual lives?
    True, but those applications and suggestions need to take into account that the majority of the people "out there" are not going to be as mature or patient or wise as they would like to be, and in most cases, not as much as they THINK they already are.

    So, advising someone to approach something in a wise and prudent manner is one thing. But it needs to be acknowledged that the other person is going to do whatever comes most easily to them.

    Ever been in one of those times when someone puts you down and makes fun of you in front of other people? He says such witty gems as "you're such a dickhead! you're an idiot, you're such a FAG!" and you can be as wise as you like, and give as perfect answers as you like, but he'll still just come back with "yeah, but you're still a FAG!" and his friends will all laugh and you'll still be left looking like the idiot.

    To a lesser extreme, this is what daily interactions with people mostly consist of. In my experience, anyway. That's why I'm gradually moving towards a slightly jaded kind of view of life... what's the point me putting in all this effort and trying my damnedest to be the best person I know how to be, if the other people around me just aren't making the effort?

    What'm I sposed to do? Walk away from all of them and spend all my time alone until I find a perfect community of mature and decent people who all make as much effort to do right by others as I do? Cos that'd put me in for a loooong, looonely old time!

    It's easier from my POV to just avoid F's, quite frankly... sure, I still have disagreements with T's, but the difference is that they can almost always be worked out and solved within minutes, very seldom does it take more than 24 hours before we're buds again. But, for whatever the reasons, I feel as though with most F's, it's a case of walking on egg shells because if I just make a single mistake, it'll all go down hill from there because no matter how hard I try to sort it out, everything I say will just be used against me, twisted, or just plain misunderstood, and will only make the situation worse.

    And a guy can only take so much of being called an asshole when he was trying his best.
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

    "When it all comes down to dust
    I will kill you if I must
    I will help you if I can" - Leonard Cohen

  4. #144
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    I agree with you that we certainly don't live in an ideal world. I think the value of spending time with those we don't understand, even if it is exhausting is that they make up a significant amount of the population (so even in selfish terms this benefits us personally and professionally) and they also open another dimension to the world that we need.

    When Feelers go to T country it is like me going to Germany and needing to understand that bluntness does not equal mean-ness. It is the tourist's job to adjust their perceptions as well as communications. After they learn how to "translate" this behaviour and get practice doing it, it is much easier to smoothly transition between the two, even if there is some adjustment involved. However it does help to have a tour guide who can orient the person to their new surroundings and help them know how to go on. Maybe this is sometimes what is missing. Feelers do need to point out where the landmines are in their country and immature ones often just expect others to know and get upset and unreasonable when they don't. Immature thinkers on the other hand, will sometimes watch Feelers trip over invisible wire and then sit back and laugh.

  5. #145
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ne-Monster View Post
    I hear you. I have had Ts hurt my feelings in the past. The best was when my favorite INTJ told me I'd have finished my pHd if I wasnt so lazy and worked harder. I stopped for five seconds in shock. Then I just laughed hysterically. She was correct and didnt mean to be an ass, but that's just who she is. I have developed my T filter which takes what you guys say, contextualizes it, then processes it.

    Maybe I hang too much with NTs though, as touchy feeler nicities do annoy me. I need honest critical thought. I find ISFJs to be the hardest to convince this to. However I may overuse Te...
    See, that comment? I wouldn't have batted a single eyelid. I'd have said a completely unperturbed "yeah..." cos I'd have known that the INTJ was just trying to point out some useful information, the acknowledgement and internalization of which would help solve my problem.
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

    "When it all comes down to dust
    I will kill you if I must
    I will help you if I can" - Leonard Cohen

  6. #146
    Senior Member Scott N Denver's Avatar
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    specific traits or behaviors that I can think of that probably would turn typical non-NT's off to NT's [and to NTJ's in particular]: being nitpicky, critical, cold, harsh, condescending, uninterested in others, uninterested in helping others, seeing people as only means to an end, not showing any interest in other people on any sort of personal level, being in something only for themselves, not willing to pitch in for the team from time to time, seeing other people as adversaries, treating other people as potential threats or rivals, viewing dealing with other people as an invasion of their independence, having a conversational style described as "terse to the point of rudeness", ignoring your boss or people above them because you disagree with their choice for whatever reasons, being unwilling to do things in situations where if that NT was in charge they would have made a different choice [sort of a "my way or the highway"], being disrespectful of other people and their time because they are "less important" or "lower on the totem pole" than you, treating people like they are too stupid and/or uninformed for you to deal with on an equal level, the air that you have various nefarious plans in your head that you won't share with others until you betray them or stab them in the back, not respecting authority and the chains of authority

    Whether the above perceptions are FAIR or not, I think they might be somewhat common issues for NT's dealing with typical non-NT's. Some are probably much less common than others. A number of those are probably more likely to annoy F's than to annoy T's or especially TJ's. Obviously, not all NT's or NTJ's do all of the above. Also, NT's may not consider their behavior to be described by the above things, but others might anyways. Different people will interpret those words differently, for example what qualifies as rude or as condescending?

  7. #147
    Senior Member BlahBlahNounBlah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTPness View Post
    I love all of you NF's and NT's. As long as you're being constructive, then we can get along. Come on...group hug everyone. The NF's should probably lead the hug-giving ceremony though, or we might end up with the NT's explaining why hugs aren't logical.

    I love an excuse to hug illogically.

  8. #148
    Senior Member BlahBlahNounBlah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    See, that comment? I wouldn't have batted a single eyelid. I'd have said a completely unperturbed "yeah..." cos I'd have known that the INTJ was just trying to point out some useful information, the acknowledgement and internalization of which would help solve my problem.
    It wouldn't have bothered me either, but I can see how it could bother someone else. I would have phrased it differently just because of the huge possibility for misinterpretation.


    It's more convenient to take a second to change your wording than to deal with a massive dramatic fallout.

  9. #149
    wholly charmed Spartacuss's Avatar
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    I just was thinking, that when Feelers go to T country it is like me going to Germany and understanding that bluntness does not equal mean-ness. It is the tourist's job to adjust their perceptions as well as communications. However it does help to have a tour guide who can orient the person to their new surroundings and help them know how to go on. Maybe this is sometimes what is missing.

    It gets tiring as all hell to ALWAYS ALWAYS be the one having to adjust communication style. A LOT of feelers seem to think that it must be the NTs fault since they, being Fs, are naturally in the right in approaching a human situation. I'm willing to work with people, but I'm not willing to accept their starting point that assumes that the NT is the one who needs to re-evaluate how s/he communicates.
    Ti (43); Ne (41.8); Te (33.7); Fi (30.5); Ni (27.5); Se (24.7); Si (21.5); Fe (17.3)
    The More You Know the Less You Need. - Aboriginal Saying

  10. #150
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    E-zackly! It's not a major adjustment to make and will save you and your audience so much unnecessary grief.

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