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  1. #131
    Senior Member Scott N Denver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kangirl View Post
    Huh, there very well may be a few Holden Caulfield's in this thread (main character of The Catcher In The Rye, for those who haven't read it), but Scott N Denver isn't one of the ones coming across as one, imo.

    Btw, Scott, I appreciate your NF perspective here, and I don't think you're coming off as depressed or angry, really.
    Thanks. I'm from a military background that operates on the attitude of "how do we constructively deal with [whatever the situation is]", and I think its kinda weird/funny/whatever when I try to take that approach and feel like others are trying to derail or ignore it.

  2. #132
    wholly charmed Spartacuss's Avatar
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    I also find the messages to Ts conflicting. On the one hand, they are told that they are feeling-impaired and robotic and therefore lack certain skills with humanity. On the other hand, if they embrace this, they are told to stop acting like they are feeling-impaired and robotic.
    Ti (43); Ne (41.8); Te (33.7); Fi (30.5); Ni (27.5); Se (24.7); Si (21.5); Fe (17.3)
    The More You Know the Less You Need. - Aboriginal Saying

  3. #133
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThatGirl View Post
    Haven't you witnessed all the "NTs" that are like, "Oh, I am so Cold" or "Oh, I am emotionally retarded?"

    Its like they wear it as a badge of honor. I simply don't understand this.

    Why would you be proud of being similar to the autistic?
    That's ascribing emotional motivations to people that you've no way of knowing. Just because somebody says something, especially when it's in print, it doesn't automatically mean you can read intentions into that and assume your readings are correct. You're reading that when a person says the above quotations, the only reason they'd say it would be to boast. This is not logical, there are countless other reasons a person might have. In fact, whenever I see it, it comes through to me as far from boasting, but rather more self-deprecating or simply explaining or clarifying certain weaknesses in themselves.

    I was bullied badly throughout my school life and, thinking back, I would say that the vast majority of those bullies were F's.

    I wouldn't put F/T disagreements down to either one being assholes or having greater or lesser emotional awareness. I think that, from my POV, the difficulties come from people ascribing and attributing to each other the motivations that they only guess that they have/had. Guessing based on their own likely responses. This results in putting words into people's mouths, and at this point, no real communication can happen as people are only hearing what they want to hear, which is whatever confirms their initial assessment. No progress can happen in this situation.

    You can be as aware of your emotions as possible, but it still doesn't give you the right to tell me what mine are.
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

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  4. #134
    Senior Member INTPness's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott N Denver View Post
    NT's and NF's both comprise about~15% of the [I believe US and maybe as well world] population. Whatever and however either type thinks or feels, both groups will generally be evaluated by standards not of their own. The vast majority of leaders [corporate, military, political, etc] are SJ's [STJ's in particular]. Both groups are outnumbered by _SF_'s. Regardless of the legitimacy or lack there of of our approaches and "values/priorities", we will have to "impress" and "answer to" predominantly non-NT-NF people as we go through life, particularly in the work world. It would behoove one to be aware of what they might think of you [you general not you as in poster] and why.

    In response to the title of this thread, lack of [perceived] consideration for others, and to a lesser extent lack of [perceived] concern about others is what I personally think creates a lot of this assessment towards NT's. "You don't care about [me, him, her, whoever], fine then I'm not gonna care about you!" would probably be a good catchphrase to describe that. I think some, especially say SF's, interpret NT words and/or actions as being particularly spiteful and going out of one's way to be mean or hurtful to others. I think that bumps peoples attitudes towards said NT's from "Fine I'm not gonna care about you!" to "that person is such an _sshole!". Of course, NT's don't have a monopoly on such behavior.
    I understand all that. This thread is just strange. It starts out with an "NT" basically calling out other NT's, without addressing or discussing their own struggle or ability to overcome these same tendencies. That really could have been insightful. It should be assumed, from the way the original post was written, that the OP no longer has these struggles (or that he/she never had those struggles in the first place). If that's the case, then it would be REALLY insightful to the rest of us NT's to hear how the OP overcame those struggles. If the OP is concerned about NT's improving our image/people skills/ability to navigate through life, help us out with telling us how you got past these same struggles, being that you are also an NT.

    If, on the other hand, the OP DOES still struggle with these same things, then why is he/she giving us flack for it instead of looking in the mirror?

    The thread continues with a bunch of NF's hopping on board. And I appreciate the input. I value NF opinions very much. The shared "N" (and the rarity we have in society) makes it that we have a special connection and can help each other out. I just get frustrated with finger pointing rather than self-reflection/looking in the mirror. If you're an NT and you are certain that you are not a jerk, share your story in a way that helps those NT's who are trying to work through their issues, don't just say, "so many NT's are JERKS" because that tells us that you don't think YOU are a jerk - only that OTHERS are.

  5. #135
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    You know this whole asshole thing seems context specific and worthy of considering the "intent" not just the observed behavior based on sociatal standards.

    Some NTs for instance can take the transfer from an academic job to an industry job and do very well. Others could never make the leap.

    When surrounded by other NTs thier honest, straightforward, cutting, shape, no fluff approach is perfectly acceptable. It can be highly critical and a bit painful. If the whole world was NTs then they would not be assholes, they would be normal.

    When you throw them out into society at large, things can be bumpy and suddenly they are "assholes" for behavior that is thier natural communication style. Yet that communication style is an aspect of the way they think-which is why we hired them in the first place. I need effective accomplishment, intellectual ability and creativity, not a circle arond the campfire and hugs.

    Typicaly as long as what they do is nonmalevolent or intentional in nature they are not assholes, just thinkers.

  6. #136
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ne-Monster View Post
    You know this whole asshole thing seems context specific and worthy of considering the "intent" not just the observed behavior based on sociatal standards.
    I tried that debate with several Feelers, but it went nowhere because they explicitly said that to them, the intent is irrelevant and so is my point of view. They FEEL that I've hurt them, and that's that, and no explanation can take that away, even if the explantion makes it clear and totally proves that they simply misunderstood the situation and that no malice or "badness" was actually going on. Yes, several Feelers have said to me that this is the way they think. So, what can you do then?
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

    "When it all comes down to dust
    I will kill you if I must
    I will help you if I can" - Leonard Cohen

  7. #137
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    I think the original intent of this thread was not so much debating Thinking vs Feeling styles, but aimed at a specific subset of the NT population who try to be provocative on purpose and cause damage while doing so.

    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    I tried that debate with several Feelers, but it went nowhere because they explicitly said that to them, the intent is irrelevant and so is my point of view. They FEEL that I've hurt them, and that's that, and no explanation can take that away, even if the explantion makes it clear and totally proves that they simply misunderstood the situation and that no malice or "badness" was actually going on. Yes, several Feelers have said to me that this is the way they think. So, what can you do then?
    I think what both Thinkers and Feelers can do is learn how the other is most likely to take things, communicate your intent clearly and meet each other in the middle for communication styles. If I go to Japan, I realize that if I carry on in my usual way I will be considered rude, even if I seem polite in Canada. Therefore, I have to adjust what I do to some socially accepted norms so that I don't close people's minds to the intent and ideas that I am trying to convey. Throwing something out there that is considered very rude just to see the people's reactions in that country is not productive.

  8. #138
    Senior Member Scott N Denver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTPness View Post
    I understand all that. This thread is just strange. It starts out with an "NT" basically calling out other NT's, without addressing or discussing their own struggle or ability to overcome these same tendencies. That really could have been insightful. It should be assumed, from the way the original post was written, that the OP no longer has these struggles (or that he/she never had those struggles in the first place). If that's the case, then it would be REALLY insightful to the rest of us NT's to hear how the OP overcame those struggles. If the OP is concerned about NT's improving our image/people skills/ability to navigate through life, help us out with telling us how you got past these same struggles, being that you are also an NT.

    If, on the other hand, the OP DOES still struggle with these same things, then why is he/she giving us flack for it instead of looking in the mirror?

    The thread continues with a bunch of NF's hopping on board. And I appreciate the input. I value NF opinions very much. The shared "N" (and the rarity we have in society) makes it that we have a special connection and can help each other out. I just get frustrated with finger pointing rather than self-reflection/looking in the mirror. If you're an NT and you are certain that you are not a jerk, share your story in a way that helps those NT's who are trying to work through their issues, don't just say, "so many NT's are JERKS" because that tells us that you don't think YOU are a jerk - only that OTHERS are.
    I thought this was a very insightful post.

    In the spirit of trying to provide something useful, I could not find it but I recall a thread or two or three about "Fetard", and "developing Fe for INT's" or whatever it was called. My recollections of that thread were things like 1) "Don't call people's feelings stupid" and 2) "don't try to invalidate people's feelings or to tell them that there feelings are wrong"

  9. #139
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    you're right fidelia, but in the real world, the majority of people just don't do that and an awful lot can't because they just don't have the wisdom or maturity.

    and yet, if that concept was put to them in a completely non-personal way, they'd say they agreed and that this is what they always do.

    edit - INTPness there, showing that superior Si that you guys have. Superior to mine, anyway "check him out, he's looked back over the facts and prior events and considered things in a linear fashion, analyzed them and presesnted them in a lucid format... wow " (that's what I thought)
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

    "When it all comes down to dust
    I will kill you if I must
    I will help you if I can" - Leonard Cohen

  10. #140
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    True to both. On the other hand, I think that this is one of most useful purposes of forums like this. Knowledge is only valuable if it can be put to use. In real life, there are not nearly as many types people in each of our immediate circles to discuss things with and see how they react. It is also easier here because it is more impersonal and we don't have a history of misunderstandings in real life.

    So what is the purpose of discussing issues here if there isn't some kind of practical application in our individual lives?

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