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  1. #11
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    Thanks for all the responses so far guys!

    I figure that as long as I'm aware of my motives and who I am, and have a conscious objective to continue to improve myself, that ultimately I will figure it out.

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Basically the main bullet point of this thread is this. How have you NT's been able to bypass the iceman (dominant Te) and allow your vulnerable, sympathetic side to show through?
    what defines which character comes out? your surroundings, right?

    so one time when ice is on, make an effort to bring the child out. sure, things would be clumsy at first but pretty soon the ice and the child should assimilate and make a very powerful team.

    you'll loose the ice/child distinction when child starts handling whatever ice is good at and maybe vice versa...cuz then child will feel comfortable and ice won't have to be that...icelike

  3. #13
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    I think that EJCC has a good point. This is something that comes through frequent practice; maybe her and thisGuy's methods are a start. For most Fs, even seeing glimmers of the child's existence will make them both interested in you and more trusting of you. No one wants to feel that they are the only one with vulnerabilities. When there is only one sided, sharing the sharer either quits or starts feeling very resentful/underconfident (which also brings on awkward emotional feelings).

    The child can come out in little ways. We were discussing in the SJ forum what others see as vulnerability and some STJs were surprised that it didn't have to be all that overt. Things like asking someone's opinion, seeking their expertise in areas you know they are competent in, showing interest in what they have to say, accepting an offer of help or something they could do for you (can be something little), telling them about small things that bother you (you don't have to delve in big and scary - you are just making yourself human by showing that you to don't have it all perfect and figured out), complimenting someone sincerely, considering their point of view without being dismissive, being patient with people who do not think the same as you, offering a little bit of your thought processes for them to see. These are little ways to be vulnerable so they are not too very risky. They will make you more approachable and make it seem like less big of a deal when you want to expose anything deeper.

    You have made an excellent analysis of the problem and I think the only thing lacking is practice at exercising the underexposed side of who you are.

  4. #14
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    very well said, for in the end we are all only humans !
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  5. #15
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    Like EJCC I'd like to add the social (third) facet two the two others I've already mentioned. Although, it isnt always expressed when in a social environment. If I'm accepted by the group as a whole, I will fully express my social side through the prism of the child. If I'm not accepted but merely tolerated, the social side will still be expressed, but I won't be able to let my guard down enough to reveal the child. Thus when lacking acceptance, my social side is expressed through the lens of the iceman.

    When my positive child focused social side comes out, the greatest of times can be had.

    When the negative iceman social side comes out, it is nearly impossible to just let go and have a good time.

  6. #16
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    What makes you feel accepted by the group as a whole? Is it the mix of people? Their reaction to you? How you are feeling at the time?

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    What makes you feel accepted by the group as a whole? Is it the mix of people? Their reaction to you? How you are feeling at the time?
    Definitely their reaction to me. Mostly a body language thing I guess. Whether or not I'm accepted seems to have a lot to do with whether my particular brand of humor flies with the group in question.

  8. #18
    On a mission Usehername's Avatar
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    Short answer: Used to be like that; grew out of it.

    Long answer:
    Quote Originally Posted by Misty_Mountain_Rose View Post
    Ice is exactly how I feel on the outside... like a surface calm covering a storm of emotion underneath. (I'm also an Enneagram 4 heh) If anyone were to take a pick-axe and slam it into that surface, they'd find me shattering to pieces and a cowering child inside, scared to come out.
    I relate to this "still waters run deep" notion.
    I also relate to your childish behaviour mentioned below; I used to do this in high school (which btw is not intended as an insult, it's simply fact for me):
    Quote Originally Posted by Misty_Mountain_Rose View Post
    I find that when I'm trying to relate to people, to fit into a crowd, its that child that I call on and instead of sharing the FEELINGS of that child, I share the actual childishness and come across as perhaps immature and ridiculous. I joke, I act like an airhead, I laugh... and by doing this I win people over and 'fit in'. I found a long time ago that the serious, know-it-all persona tends to piss people off, so I fluctuate between the two on a situation by situation basis.
    Quote Originally Posted by Misty_Mountain_Rose View Post

    As far as the Feeling part goes and being able to relate to others, I'm still working on that, but I've made great strides in the last few years. I find that the more I 'practice' (This is exactly how I see it), the easier it gets. I 'pretend' that I'm an ExFx, sympathizing with someone, asking questions I may not normally ask, talking to strangers and forcing myself out of that solitude. Sometimes its still awkward and I just don't have the energy for it, but whenever possible I try to over-ride those hermit instincts.
    I went through this during my Rough Year. I simply had a lot of emotional shit to sort through, and I took the shitty situation as an opportunity to have legitmate reasons to explore my feelings both by myself and with trusted others. (Undiagnosed and moderately serious illness that messed with my hormones and was painful/death of same-aged favourite cousin/other shitty life problems.) It actually broke me through it, I think. This was right after my gap year of pushing personal boundaries and engaging in new experiences (we moved every week for a school year and traveled Canada and Africa, volunteering and attending lectures and doing extreme sports etc.)

    All in all, I've learned to pwn this part of me and I don't feel the discrepancy. I'm like INFJs in that I'd be comfortable and able to share these parts of myself, I simply choose to only let special individuals see it, and even then on my terms.
    *You don't have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body.
    *Faith is the art of holding on to things your reason once accepted, despite your changing moods.
    C.S. Lewis

  9. #19
    my floof is luxury Wind Up Rex's Avatar
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    I definitely know what your talking about, Disco. Almost down to the same images, eerily enough. For me its child and wolf. The wolf is cold, arrogant and intellectual. The child is the innocent, manic, fragile and creative who has more of a female/anima vibe. The wolf protects the child though the child is the more dangerous of the two, I think. The wolf has a code, but the child is a hedonist and without empathy.

    Honest to god, it doesn't fee like either of them are really fit for company. I'm happier when the Kid is running the show though. I have more adventures, I can talk to anyone and people are drawn to me. It doesn't seem genuine though. It's funny because I have an easier time integrating the two when engaged in a project than in my social life. I don't know what happens to me.

  10. #20
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Definitely their reaction to me. Mostly a body language thing I guess. Whether or not I'm accepted seems to have a lot to do with whether my particular brand of humor flies with the group in question.
    Agreed. I won't feel accepted if no one laughs at my jokes - and I will joke, when in a group of people I don't know.
    But I only TRULY feel accepted when I no longer feel pressured to expose only the social side. (We should have a name for that persona. "Socialite"? "Comedian"? Hm.) This might sound weird, but when I can be the iceman around someone, while knowing that they won't think less of me for it, I know that that someone is a friend. The child is a whole other step, really.
    ~ g e t f e s t i v e ! ~


    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"



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