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  1. #21
    Artisan Conquerer Halla74's Avatar
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    My older brother is an INTJ.

    He is, and always has been a SLOB.

    Despite this organizational shortcoming, he truly is brilliant.

    I'm thankful he is married now and that his wife is a neatnick.

  2. #22
    Senior Member Helios's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haight View Post
    And for those that know messy NTs . . . what's your opinion on this matter?


    This is intended to be a psychological examination with the purpose of discovering why a so-called rational person can be so systematically irrational.


    In advance, thanks for your help.
    The creation and maintenance of an "organised" living space is not worth the (slight) gain in efficiency in locating items in this living space afforded by said organisation.

  3. #23
    my floof is luxury Wind Up Rex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haight View Post
    And for those that know messy NTs . . . what's your opinion on this matter?


    This is intended to be a psychological examination with the purpose of discovering why a so-called rational person can be so systematically irrational.


    In advance, thanks for your help.
    I have more important things to do or think about then how my room looks. It's my space and I frankly could care less.

    And I'd argue that it's the height of irrationality to waste time and effort straightening up something that's just going to get messy again. There's a lot of things worth struggling against; entropy doesn't count among them.

  4. #24
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    I can imagine an NT responding something like this:

    "Actually, I'm not messy. I only appear messy because I don't put things up and out of sight, or place things that are similar in nature close together. I leave things in consistent, accessible places so I know where they are, and make sure to leave objects near the places that I'll use them regularly. My organization of things is laid out based on the tasks I perform regularly in a particular area rather than aesthetics. I only bother to put things 'away' if I know I won't be using them for a while. I actually save a lot of time that I would otherwise spend shuffling through drawers or pulling something down off a shelf. I get things done more quickly and efficiently than people who seem organized. I also save a lot of time/energy by waiting until the end of the day to throw away garbage that accumulates on my table all at once, rather than discarding it as it's created the way most people expect me to."

    Of course, this NT may simply be imaginary. I don't know if any NTs actually exist that have this mentality.

  5. #25
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    A certain level of organization is an inefficient use of time. What that level is varies from person to person. Some people need higher levels, others lower ones.

  6. #26
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nozflubber View Post
    ah, but you see it's not what I'm doing.... it's what i don't do and I don't justify things that I don't do - that's just illogical!

    I don't need to justify my messy room (i have the laws of entropy and all for that), I need to justify cleaning it in the first place (which I can't do, cuz i dont see the point)
    I could easily justify cleaning: Health. Anyone who tells me it's just as easy to dust, vacuum, wipe down, and disinfect a bedroom that uses the floor as their shelf as a tidy area is a liar and never cleans. Having so many things out and about and all over the place, laundry strewn around everywhere, etc. means more things to collect dust, dirt, and hold those things within the space.

    Quote Originally Posted by tinkerbell View Post
    lighten up dude....

    The mess is because there are MUCH more interesting things to spend ones time on. Tidying just means it will get messy and require to be retidied again a few das/weeks later...

    Personally I think that someone ought to invesnt a self dusting house... I think that is the most futile of all house hold chores....

    This one I almost do get, because this is the way I thought when I was growing up, aka a teenager. I thought, "I could clean my room where only I reside, or I could help mom clean the living room real quick and do better things like exercise and play with my friends." and guess which I picked.

    Where this fails at is I think NTs are underestimating the power of an inviting space. To come home to something tidy, organized, appealing to the eye and in order gives a sort of subconscious peace... like even if everything outside is chaotic and insane, at least my place has order.

    I think it's also said that you reap what you sow, and if you sow chaos and disorder and make up all sorts of excuses to get out of obligations to maintain order and tidyness and cleanliness, than you reap the benefits of all that you put into it.

    Quote Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
    A certain level of organization is an inefficient use of time. What that level is varies from person to person. Some people need higher levels, others lower ones.
    I'll disagree on this point as well. I think that having a higher standard for order and organization is extremely important. If a hotel room mimicked a disorganized space, you'd be quick to complain and call the manager. You paid for a space to reside in and it's slop. So how is paying for your own items, your own space, and things that you own have a lower standard than that of a space that isn't yours at all??

    I have a high standard for clean, and when I take something out, I find a place for it again and put it straight away back to where it goes. When I buy new objects, I also buy or already have a space for it within my living quarters. I used to be very messy and think I was organized.. but the truth was, I would 'clean' my room and find money I didn't know I had, things I'd forgotten about.. It's amazing what you forget you have just because it isn't in plain sight.

    I'm totally with you Haight, it just seems illogical for anyone to live in disorganization, or even attempt to justify it outside of Tink's honest answer of "I think I have better things to do" or the oh-so honest "I'm lazy, and it disinterests me."
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  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    I'll disagree on this point as well. I think that having a higher standard for order and organization is extremely important. If a hotel room mimicked a disorganized space, you'd be quick to complain and call the manager. You paid for a space to reside in and it's slop. So how is paying for your own items, your own space, and things that you own have a lower standard than that of a space that isn't yours at all??

    I have a high standard for clean, and when I take something out, I find a place for it again and put it straight away back to where it goes. When I buy new objects, I also buy or already have a space for it within my living quarters. I used to be very messy and think I was organized.. but the truth was, I would 'clean' my room and find money I didn't know I had, things I'd forgotten about.. It's amazing what you forget you have just because it isn't in plain sight.

    I'm totally with you Haight, it just seems illogical for anyone to live in disorganization, or even attempt to justify it outside of Tink's honest answer of "I think I have better things to do" or the oh-so honest "I'm lazy, and it disinterests me."
    Higher than what? Depends on your comparison. I've been to people's houses where I was afraid to touch anything, as even the stack of magazines was ruler-edge straight.

  8. #28
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    ^ I think the standard is health-based for me. As long as I can efficiently clean the area in a very short amount of time to maintain it's health quality (as in, dust, dustmites, laundry washings, etc.) than the space is orderly enough for quality of life. This seems like a reasonable approach to the situation for anyone.

    I've definitely also been to houses that were more like museums. I don't think this fits the definition of an inviting space for me, or many others, but to some this is their standard so that's fine I suppose.. I'm not saying anyone has to have a museum for a bedroom.. but being capable of dusting, wiping, vacuuming, and throwing a load of laundry in the wash within 10 minutes I think is a very reasonable request. If anyone has to spend more than 10 minutes cleaning their room, they've let it go too far. I don't like spending hours and hours sifting through crap out of laziness.
    Kantgirl: Just say "I'm feminine and I'll punch anyone who says otherwise!"
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  9. #29
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haight View Post
    I'm always as light as a feather, so don't worry about that, dude.

    And, I'm not concerned with the issue of dusting, vacuuming, etc. I'm speaking to a system, which is easily created, that will ultimately allow more time to do you "interesting things." In other words, it's much faster to put something in a logical location in order to easily locate it, or them, than it is to have to spend time looking and thinking about where the items are at present time. If NTs are about systems, than why would so many of them continually live in disorder, lack of precision, and carelessness?

    It is, in fact, illogical and waisting precious time for "philosophizing."
    I see what you mean. I keep my house and mind in the same sort of pile, but I know exactly where everything is if I need it. I don't need to do the extra step of filing it away properly. It's just an extra step that seems pointless to me and it actually keeps the information further away from me.

    It's like when I am in a rush to get dressed but I don't know what I want to wear. I have to go in the closet, take things off hangers, try things on and hang them back up. There are just too many steps and it's more effiecient to keep everything in a big pile on the floor.

  10. #30
    Nips away your dignity Fluffywolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    I see what you mean. I keep my house and mind in the same sort of pile, but I know exactly where everything is if I need it. I don't need to do the extra step of filing it away properly. It's just an extra step that seems pointless to me and it actually keeps the information further away from me.

    It's like when I am in a rush to get dressed but I don't know what I want to wear. I have to go in the closet, take things off hangers, try things on and hang them back up. There are just too many steps and it's more effiecient to keep everything in a big pile on the floor.
    +1!

    I also hate it when someone else starts 'organizing' my stuff. It's fine the way it is!
    ~Self-depricating Megalomaniacal Superwolf

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