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  1. #11
    Senior Member MonkeyGrass's Avatar
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    Thus, in addition to precision in dictum the intelligent INTJ will draw upon such devices (such as using hand movements in conjunction with certain words and touching things to bring the abstract down to the concrete) to help communicate his or her ideas.
    I resound with this. :O) I'll admit I usually run away screaming from really long paragraphs , but I'm really happy I stuck it out and read through your post. You make some very insightful observations. One of my favorite things is watching (usually quiet) INTJs hang on the fringe of a conversation silently, and suddenly bursting into some animated, brilliant insight, handing flying. It's fun, and worth waiting for.

  2. #12
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    Oh lord. So let me get this right, with you, but not with other people, these INTJs close their eyes and move their hands in front of themselves. Only with you. Not in front of other people. And sometimes they glance sweetly at you.

    That's some interesting workplace you got there.
    5 lbs, little Ni, 5 lbs. Okay to rephrase, he is much less defensive/intense with my SP heavy team and I just happen to see the sweet Fis cause I know what to look for. He is very on guard with the NTs-our engineering group as the f'ed a huge project up and he doesn't trust them. He actually does the closed eye-hand combo when interacting on very serious subjects. Only as of late when he is relaxed have I seen the Fi sneak out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Provoker View Post
    First I shall elaborate on this attribute exhibited by many INTJs and then I shall explain what I think are the reasons behind such behavior.
    Much thanks, I will look into this.

  3. #13
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ne-Monster View Post
    5 lbs, little Ni, 5 lbs. Okay to rephrase, he is much less defensive/intense with my SP heavy team [...]
    You have an SP heavy team? A bunch of guys called Lefty. "Consultants" I believe is the term. Again, interesting workplace.

    I think Provoker is spot on with something here. The whole third paragraph resonates big-time. And I'm going to wonder out loud if Se isn't still somehow connected to the phenomenon.

    Se is in the moment making us aware of opportunities to carry out the master plan. It is in some ways a thing poised, right there waiting, to quote a song. The whole INTJ thing of understatement and minimalism seems, intuitively to this untrained intuitor, to be related to this. The relatively lowly place of Se makes the phenomenon more pronounced, I think, particularly as one ages, first in youth through recognising one's not quite trustworthy ability to get something done in the moment, and later in older age as the ability becomes more trustworthy, but still somewhat elusive. The economy of INTJ expression seems like it has to be a part of this, little tiny gestures representing sweeping change.

    Like midget Tom Cruise in Minority Report except that Tom would wave his arms like a lunatic when using that computer interface. No such physical comedy for this INTJ. Or at least, so my internal impression say. And I know they're wrong. I have the feeling I should videotape myself in class sometime.

  4. #14
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    I watched the video-the eye movements were spot on. The hands were a bit over the top. Most INTJs seem to have this a little more Te restrained, but the motions were accurate. However the cadance in the voice was quite right. Slow down just a touch and it would be exactly what an excited intj sounds like.

    K, perhaps the closed eyes are a way to block Se when you need to refocus Ni?

    Funny, my toddler- an IXTJ-normally doesnt like TV. We dont have one at home, and he only sees it now and then at daycare. He pretty much ignores it when it is on. But when he watched they guy in the video he was fascinated.

    He began to experiment, and would mimic the guy's hand movements. He was very precise about it, and would match exactly what movement the guy had just done. About every ten seconds he would pick up on a new hand movement. Then he would alternate, space out a little, try it out and then pick a new hand movement. It was really odd.

  5. #15
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    If it wasn't the ghost of Se in the Ni, then the hands would stop moving, wouldn't they?

    I've seen ENFJs do it. When they are trying to articulate a vision, the hands come out and start shaping things. The "make you believe" gesture, make you see it.

  6. #16
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    actually when I read the OP, the only people I know who do this sprang to mind, who are ISTJ and INFJ.
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  7. #17
    Senior Member amelie's Avatar
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    This is so my INTJ husband - when he's really working on something - usually something that involves frustration or deep emotions, his eyes are closed. I appreciate this thread - it gives me some great new perspective.

  8. #18
    Senior Member ceecee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by amelie View Post
    This is so my INTJ husband - when he's really working on something - usually something that involves frustration or deep emotions, his eyes are closed. I appreciate this thread - it gives me some great new perspective.


    What does he say when you point this out?
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  9. #19
    Senior Member Misty_Mountain_Rose's Avatar
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    Ok... gotta back track now in my head... I had the same exact problem I'm describing below when I started typing lol

    Se is our weakest function, and putting our ideas out there can sometimes be difficult. Perhaps the hand gestures and touching of things is really the OPPOSITE of the eye closing, where the functions are essentially fighting for dominance or being exerted in order to communicate with someone else.

    Follow the thought here for a second...

    INTJ sits quietly on the sidelines for a good half hour, listening to the group of people talking, making connections and finally decides he/she has something worthy to add to the conversation. When they do jump in, they're struggling probably much like I am now to get their point across exactly right without miscommunications (which are probably common place with them) or misconceptions about their meaning.

    So... you have the momentary eye closings where they're almost lost to Ni, and then reaching out to the external world with Te and Se to bring clarity and accuracy in a way that others will understand. I wonder if these two things go hand in hand in a kind of teamwork that the INTJ feels they need to rely upon when conversing.

    The intuitive thoughts are sometimes so difficult to grasp... its like a fleeting glimpse of AHA! and if you don't catch it quickly it can be gone and there isn't any way to get it back. If, in that particular moment of insight, you can cling to something physical and 'real' perhaps it helps to ground the Ni a bit and force it to reconsile with reality. The eye closing is the 'grasping' of the idea before it can escape, Forcing Te into action for a kind of aligning of the thoughts and bringing them into coherent words... and then Se will be called on to express what Ni and Te have discovered and put into order.

    Does that make a bit of sense?

    Edit: lol, I see someone posted nearly the same thing above. Way to not read the thread before posting Misty!
    Embrace the possibilities.

  10. #20

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    I find that over the years I have picked up many other people's mannerisms, intonations, accents, silly sounds, expressions, and hand gestures without realizing. It's a huge arsenal of strange communication tools. Looking back, it was always about finding new ways to help my verbal contributions be understood.

    The strange body language is definitely Ni desperately trying to find a physical foothold in the discussion.
    "The purpose of life is to be defeated by greater and greater things." - Rainer Maria Rilke

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