[NT] Cut the rope? NT only

[thisGuy]

Further investigation is good. Pointing out the various holes in thisguy's scenario is unhelpful and pointless.

not as pointless as it might appear at first

throw in some lack of details and threat to personal safety where your conscience might be tickled and you have a scenario that where the you (the decision maker) demands an explanation to the point where you can make a choice and not have any misgivings/troubled-self

So:
(I'm not sure what system of value this scenario serves to highlight; in all likelihood, the prospect of inevitable death would overwhelm reasonable thought and simply cascade the individual into a state of hysterical self-preservation. Nothing is really clarified by our answers. Only that, as distant theory, we may/may not recognize the value of life.)

i've already thought of that

so any ultimate 'answers' given here don't really make a difference.

in the end only thing that will come from this thread is how the conclusions were reached and how long did they take to reach...moral type exposed in this thread will be in the minority and thus useless to relate to type...relating to temperament? now that, i think, could be done with a few assumptions...but perhaps not just yet

To clarify -

I'd be interested to hear a summary of your results, once they are satisfactory. Further, if you believe that a retooling of your scenario would have enhanced your comparison of response:type.

for sure.

yes, but i don't think retooling would have allowed for growth in terms of the scenario itself...it might have given some very definite answers but it wouldn't show how those answers were reached. i suppose, you can call the poll a red herring if you want.

basically, different temperaments value different things...

NT Rationale was the only place where i edited the if you gotta stay on the mountain, so does everyone else to if you are gonna die, so does everyone else. this was the only place that demanded complete facts before being comfortable with a choice.

so far, for most NTs only thing that has mattered is the value of the question. most are unable to even look past that. this could mean several things, including:

-apathy. not wanting to spend time on a question because of its perceived incompetency
-avoidance. avoid questioning of basic/moral/ethical principles, refuting the question till it matches a standard where it can be answered without rubbing against any inner values or personal rules
-something else that i cant point a finger towards...yet

i've never met an NT who has accepted a project at face value without question. leaving some 'holes' allows for development by me and the answerer. this also demonstrates Ni and Ti at work where people are trying to analyze within the situation but keep getting stuck at the hole. one too many holes and a flag goes up saying the question is stupid

also, halfway through the thread, the question turned into a riddle...the entire perspective of the audience changed as soon as people started thinking that the question was only stupid cuz it wasn't a question at all, it was a riddle...

http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/nf-idyllic/18260-do-you-cut-off-rope-nfs-only-please.html
http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/nt-rationale/18259-cut-rope-nt-only.html
http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/sp-arthouse/18261-cut-off-rope-sp-only.html
http://www.typologycentral.com/foru...-cut-off-rope-sjs-only-please.html#post703303

this is just what i have initially gathered...need time to process....i think a lot more can be learned here but i AM at work and its prolly a good idea to get some of that done too

a thread in parallel: http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/philosophy-spirituality/18258-justice-self-preservation.html

 

[Fluffywolf]

Before I read the responses, I thought NTs would have the least trouble with thought experiments, but that is obviously not the case.

It's really not that complicated. Sure, the question has some loopholes, but you know what the hypotheses should be. Answer the question accordingly.

I'd cut the rope. Either I die or all of us (including me) die.

That's why the question sucks. There's not even a hint of dilemma.

 

[thisGuy]

stay on: big ego.

but more seriously, i can't stand heroes, and the idea of being a hero is even more sickening.
people do heroic things to make themselves feel better about themselves -- about how virtuous they are. it's actually hypocritical.

i'm not virtuous and i know it.
i'm the pure one.

well...thats new

 

[Shimmy]

This would be a better question:

You find yourself on a ropeladder hanging from a chopper together with 3 other people. Two people are higher up the ladder, one is slightly down from your position.

Your eyes catch the rope slowly tearing up near the helicopter. You quickly asses the situation and realise there is approximatly 1 to 2 people too much hanging from the rope. But you are not certain. You have 4 seconds of descision time before the ladder breaks and everyone falls. Cutting beneath you first in the case there are two people too much hanging from the rope would sufficiently strain the rope to break anyway, due to the time it takes to cut the rope.

Will you cut the rope above you, or beneath you?



The angles that make this question interesting is. Can you live with yourself taking the chance to cut one person to their death in the case one was enough. Are you willing to put two more lives at stake for the sake of an assumption. Would you cut the rope above you just so you don't have to live with killing someone else. Etc, etc.

A much better question but still hypothetically. Much more appealing to INTP's because you incorporated actually assessing the situation, something I would in the very least do. As for the moral part of the question, my answer thought of in a totally safe environment and with a couple of seconds to think about it would be: I don't think I could live with myself knowing I was partially responsible for somebody else's death. But more importantly I KNOW I couldn't live with myself being dead. Cut the rope beneath me.

 

[jenocyde]

Before I read the responses, I thought NTs would have the least trouble with thought experiments, but that is obviously not the case.

It's really not that complicated. Sure, the question has some loopholes, but you know what the hypotheses should be. Answer the question accordingly.

I'd cut the rope. Either I die or all of us (including me) die.

If you are the type of person who never questions anything or looks for alternatives, then it's fitting that you would die because of it.

 

[kendoiwan]

If you are the type of person who never questions anything or looks for alternatives, then it's fitting that you would die because of it.

Pwnage

 

[Galusha]

1. The typical helicopter can only hover between 15,000 and 18,000 feet before lack of air density prevents it from staying aloft. (note: A specially designed helicopter actually summitted Everest in the last few years but this is not the norm capability.) How tall is the icy mountain?

2. I would have figured this out BEFORE getting on the rope and chosen not to go if there were no other volunteers to stay; I wouldn't have just hopped on the ladder, then found myself in a bind in mid-air.

Note: These answers might seem snarky... but they are actually the first two things I thought of.

I agree with these points. in addition, it's very unprofessional to leave one person behind... they can call in another helicopter if I let the others survive. and if they can't, there are more boring ways to die than sacrificing yourself on an icy mountaintop to save others. I'd get one hell of an obituary.

 

[jenocyde]

so far, for most NTs only thing that has mattered is the value of the question. most are unable to even look past that. this could mean several things, including:

-apathy. not wanting to spend time on a question because of its perceived incompetency
-avoidance. avoid questioning of basic/moral/ethical principles, refuting the question till it matches a standard where it can be answered without rubbing against any inner values or personal rules
-something else that i cant point a finger towards...yet

How about simply not wanting to stupidly sacrifice any precious life until we know for absolute sure that this is the only way??? There has to be more than just 2 choices...

 

[kendoiwan]

How about simply not wanting to stupidly sacrifice any precious life until we know for absolute sure that this is the only way??? There has to be more than just 2 choices...

+1

 

[thisGuy]

How about simply not wanting to stupidly sacrifice any precious life until we know for absolute sure that this is the only way??? There has to be more than just 2 choices...

learn to fly in less than a minute...

tell the pilot to lift off then after thirty seconds let go of the rope and use your jacket to parachute down and hope you dont crash into the mountain

take your shirt off and re-engineer it into the rope to hold more weight...

cover yourself with ready to go oatmeal and hope birds will come to eat...you can tie yourself to them and hope to fly away...

pray

 

[Fluffywolf]

learn to fly in less than a minute...

tell the pilot to lift off then after thirty seconds let go of the rope and use your jacket to parachute down and hope you dont crash into the mountain

take your shirt off and re-engineer it into the rope to hold more weight...

cover yourself with ready to go oatmeal and hope birds will come to eat...you can tie yourself to them and hope to fly away...

pray

Then ask such a question without giving options.

 

[kendoiwan]

learn to fly in less than a minute...

tell the pilot to lift off then after thirty seconds let go of the rope and use your jacket to parachute down and hope you dont crash into the mountain

take your shirt off and re-engineer it into the rope to hold more weight...

cover yourself with ready to go oatmeal and hope birds will come to eat...you can tie yourself to them and hope to fly away...

pray

Ofcourse because a helicopter on a search and rescue mission has faulty rope...

 

[thisGuy]

Then ask such a question without giving options.

but thats no fun...hence the holes

 

[thisGuy]

Ofcourse because a helicopter on a search and rescue mission has faulty rope...

not faulty...made for 4 peeps

 

[kendoiwan]

not faulty...made for 4 peeps

Hmm, they're looking for 5 but bring a rope only made for 4. Charming.

 

[laughingebony]

If you are the type of person who never questions anything or looks for alternatives, then it's fitting that you would die because of it.

Of course I look for alternatives. However, I do understand the purpose of thought experiments, and, as such, am able to temporarily disregard loopholes. The question here asks for a binary moral decision; it's not a puzzle. If the experiment were meant to be a puzzle, I would have solved it like one.

 

[kendoiwan]

Of course I look for alternatives. However, I do understand the purpose of thought experiments, and, as such, am able to temporarily disregard loopholes. The question here asks for a binary moral decision; it's not a puzzle. If the experiment were meant to be a puzzle, I would have solved it like one.

I'd rather not try to force a round peg into a square hole. Morality is rarely binary, life and death even less so.

 

[jenocyde]

learn to fly in less than a minute...

tell the pilot to lift off then after thirty seconds let go of the rope and use your jacket to parachute down and hope you dont crash into the mountain

take your shirt off and re-engineer it into the rope to hold more weight...

cover yourself with ready to go oatmeal and hope birds will come to eat...you can tie yourself to them and hope to fly away...

pray

Why don't we just scream to the person on top to hurry the fuck up and get in the chopper???

 

[Jaguar]

Why don't we just scream to the person on top to hurry the fuck up and get in the chopper???

Lol.

 

[jenocyde]

Of course I look for alternatives. However, I do understand the purpose of thought experiments, and, as such, am able to temporarily disregard loopholes. The question here asks for a binary moral decision; it's not a puzzle. If the experiment were meant to be a puzzle, I would have solved it like one.

Which begs the question on how you know for sure what the question was written for? Maybe it was to test our thinking skills... who the hell knows? I certainly don't. And you don't either.

Like I said before, answer the question yourself and don't worry about how I answer it. And certainly don't come on here telling me that I have 'trouble' with thought experiments, especially when you don't know the goal of this particular experiment.