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  1. #61
    I'm a star. Kangirl's Avatar
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    OK, Greed, misunderstood ya. And yeah, neuroticism isn't correlated with F-ness. If it were, I would be a big, fat F.

    *worries about random shit*
    "Only an irrational dumbass, would burn Jews." - Jaguar

    "please give concise answers in plain English" - request from Provoker

  2. #62
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Night View Post
    Although offered in jest, your critique has teeth.

    Quartering the MBTI into continental subgroups (SJ; SP; NF; NT) makes sense until oppositional/subjective language was introduced (ironically) probably as a means to add clarifying depth to the temperament summaries.

    Instead of providing process-enhancing detail, the descriptions introduce artificial terms of implied value (Mastermind v. Mechanic). It's only natural that, from here, folks unfamiliar with the non-hierarchical nature of the MBTI would necessarily presume quality of mind/behavior against type.

    In the end, applying these labels (versus simply offering an itemized breakdown of observed trait preference) distorts the MBTI into a 'tiered' (semi-competitive) framework.
    Interesting observation. It also seems to be a driving force in humanity to compartmentalize and then create these hierarchies that subjugate certain categories. It is especially interesting seeing this applied to thought patterns. Western European civilization seems especially bent on compartmentalization. This way of isolating emotion from thought is a strongly Western ideal and has been expressed in philosophies and even in media characters like Mr. Spock. I took a class on multiculturalism and was especially struck that the assumption that different types of thought processes can be isolated is an alien concept in some other cultures. Systems based on holistic models of thought and behavior would find this dichotomy of emotion and reason to be an artificial construct. It is rather interesting.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

    I want to be just like my mother, even if she is bat-shit crazy.

  3. #63
    Tier 1 Member LunaLuminosity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    I just looked up the word 'rational' and lots of dictionaries seem to concur that it's about things being consistent, logical and based on reason. So, by that definition, emotions are irrational, because they're often conflicting, inconsistent and based not on logical deduction but subjective reactions which are themselves often extremely nebulous.

    That said, simply saying they're not rational doesn't necessarily equal saying they're stupid or useless. This argument reminds me of the whole battle of the sexes, where you'll get people trying to argue that men and women are or should be the same, taking an inappropriate meaning from the word 'equal'. Men and women are not the same at all - in general, there are many things that one sex does better than the other. But to say for example that men are physically stronger than women, doesn't necessitate a defensive response from women, trying to bring up absurd examples of female body builders who outperform males in arm wrestles. It's just a simple fact, it's something that makes them different, yet difference doesn't exclude equality.

    Emotions and reason are not the same thing. But by saying that the one can do something the other can't, or vice versa, doesn't automatically take away value from either one in its place. To try to argue that "emotions can be just as rational as reason" is like saying "women can be just as physically strong as men" - yes, perhaps in some bizarre and exceptional cases, this can be so, but it doesn't stop it from being generally untrue. It's just building strawmen.
    QFT

    I've been trying to find a way to say something along the lines of this for the past two days.

  4. #64
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    I just looked up the word 'rational' and lots of dictionaries seem to concur that it's about things being consistent, logical and based on reason. So, by that definition, emotions are irrational, because they're often conflicting, inconsistent and based not on logical deduction but subjective reactions which are themselves often extremely nebulous.

    That said, simply saying they're not rational doesn't necessarily equal saying they're stupid or useless. This argument reminds me of the whole battle of the sexes, where you'll get people trying to argue that men and women are or should be the same, taking an inappropriate meaning from the word 'equal'. Men and women are not the same at all - in general, there are many things that one sex does better than the other. But to say for example that men are physically stronger than women, doesn't necessitate a defensive response from women, trying to bring up absurd examples of female body builders who outperform males in arm wrestles. It's just a simple fact, it's something that makes them different, yet difference doesn't exclude equality.

    Emotions and reason are not the same thing. But by saying that the one can do something the other can't, or vice versa, doesn't automatically take away value from either one in its place. To try to argue that "emotions can be just as rational as reason" is like saying "women can be just as physically strong as men" - yes, perhaps in some bizarre and exceptional cases, this can be so, but it doesn't stop it from being generally untrue. It's just building strawmen.
    This argument could well be an extension of the "battle of the sexes" since in our culture emotion is associated with women and rationality with men. MBTI gives the distinction a different format.

    On the point that women are physically weaker than men, I can see that using the exception to prove a rule doesn't make sense. A different error is seen when female physicality is assumed to be a subset of men. This requires the dismissal of important information from the whole picture in which women's bodies play a different role than men in perpetuating the species. There are also ways of measuring strength besides muscle mass and ability to exert force. Men's bodies can accomplish things women's bodies cannot and vice versa.

    To dismiss chunks of data that are relevant to a situation is not reasonable. In instances where emotions can impact a result, it makes sense to include these in the reasoning process. Emotions are based on a system. That system is complex and can produce confusing results when it is not understood, but to assume they are random requires a bit more proving. If there are conflicting results it is because of the nature of the input. Fix the input and fix the result.

    I'll give an illustration. I recently was confronted with a disgruntled student who demanded her money back from my class and accused me of false advertising. I analyzed the situation and determined that the student was feeling humiliated for not being able to keep up in the class. [edit] Her aggressive style and wording gave me an initial feeling that I had been inept. That emotional response helped me to understand better what she was feeling and trying to communicate [/edit] That output was likely the result of this person experiencing negative consequences for not performing well in other circumstances. Her former input made this output the course of action that made her the safest. There isn't a reason to make a judgment on her because her output of anger is nothing more or less than the input that produced it. Realizing the nature of the conflict was emotionally based and was the result of a larger context of input, I responded to the student in a positive way that alleviated any sense of embarrassment or that she was inadequate. She is now planning to contact me for individual lessons, and I will maintain my desired outcome of continuing financial income. If I had dismissed the emotional context of the situation and insisted that my product matched my advertisement, the problem would not have been solved in a way that matched my intended outcome.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

    I want to be just like my mother, even if she is bat-shit crazy.

  5. #65
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    hmm... I'm not sure it's all down to input though, because you can give the same input to two different people and they can respond wildly differently. Obviously I agree that it's not wise to dismiss emotional content of either others or the self, what works to address one person's emotions can be disastrous for another - how you alleviate embarrassment or feelings of inadequacy for one person can increase them for another.

    So, whilst input is a large part of it, that input is meeting with a unique and, to all intents and purposes, unpredictable system which can and often does do unpredictable things with it, producing output that can bear little relation to true external circumstances.
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

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  6. #66
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    here's a thought - perhaps what separates reason from emotion is that those decisions made by reason can be simply and straightforwardly demonstrated and explained to an external subject, and thereby understood. Whereas many emotional decisions can't be explained to the same level of mutual understanding to another person without that person having to put considerable effort into understanding and getting to know the individual that made the decision. Kinda...?
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

    "When it all comes down to dust
    I will kill you if I must
    I will help you if I can" - Leonard Cohen

  7. #67
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    here's a thought - perhaps what separates reason from emotion is that those decisions made by reason can be simply and straightforwardly demonstrated and explained to an external subject, and thereby understood. Whereas many emotional decisions can't be explained to the same level of mutual understanding to another person without that person having to put considerable effort into understanding and getting to know the individual that made the decision. Kinda...?
    That makes sense. The systems involved in personal perspective are complex to a point that it is probably not humanly possible to be aware of all the parameters that influence it. [edit] The input that affects an emotional reaction consists of the present input and past experiences and even physiological influences which cannot all be accounted for in a present interaction [/edit] This is likely true even for an understanding of ourselves. What can help compensate for this is to extract underlying principles and then to deal with the application of the system as approximations. It's a kind of fuzzy logic.

    In the example I gave about the disgruntled student, the principle is that people typically prefer to have a sense of competence over a sense of incompetence. The specific wordings that can encourage or discourage a person can vary drastically, so any attempt to resolve the conflict contains risk of an ineffective presentation that is misunderstood. Because of this the best a person can do is make the closest approximation to what will be interpreted in the desired manner. The failures in this process can teach a great deal. What I have tried to do is to learn how to observe patterns and information in the emotion as the person presents it. I certainly make mistakes in interpretation, but have gotten better at it over time.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

    I want to be just like my mother, even if she is bat-shit crazy.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    They are? What if one is very good at identifying them?

    Feelings come and go, sure, but in an irrational way?
    I would say that feelings and logic arrive at the same conclusion most of the time. The natural selection process enforces this tendency.

  9. #69
    Shaman BlackCat's Avatar
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    The NTs that totally shut out emotion and think they're irrational and have no place within them have a lot to learn I'd say.
    () 9w8-3w4-7w6 tritype.

    sCueI (primary Inquisition)

  10. #70
    Senior Member King sns's Avatar
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    Hmm..
    I don't think that emotions are entirely rational.
    I mean, you can justify an emotion- and you can use them as an aide to make rational decisions....

    But the emotion itself? rational? not really without using thinking to sort them out and guide them properly..

    Not that they don't serve an important purpose-
    just that I don't think rationality is one of them.

    (I probably repeated someone- didn't read the whole thread but will later.)

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