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  1. #51
    no clinkz 'til brooklyn Nocapszy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Actually, so are you, my little carebear. This might be true for you, but doesn't mean it's necessarily true for others, or for that matter on each subject.
    nope. this is true all the time.

    there is such a thing as a universal truism.
    eque has stumbled across one.

    and anyway, the very definition of irrational is choosing emotions over logic.

    what this is, is an attempt by kangirl to remedy the cognitive dissonance she's experiencing, which is inevitable when an F wants to be/thinks they are an NT.
    we fukin won boys

  2. #52
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Ahh but, sweety, that wasn't what I was referring to. Call it irrational all you want, what I was referring to is the 'higher degree of efficiency'. This is not true for everyone. Others are more efficient using the 'irrational' road. Depends on what you're more skilled at. And then there's the context to be considered. If you're trying to figure out math, then emotions are rather useless. Try to figure out love though...and you might as well toss logic out the window
    ★ڿڰۣ✿ℒoѵℯ✿ڿڰۣ★





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  3. #53
    no clinkz 'til brooklyn Nocapszy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Night View Post
    Although offered in jest, your critique has teeth.

    Quartering the MBTI into continental subgroups (SJ; SP; NF; NT) makes sense until oppositional/subjective language was introduced (ironically) probably as a means to add clarifying depth to the temperament summaries.

    Instead of providing process-enhancing detail, the descriptions introduce artificial terms of implied value (Mastermind v. Mechanic). It's only natural that, from here, folks unfamiliar with the non-hierarchical nature of the MBTI would necessarily presume quality of mind/behavior against type.

    In the end, applying these labels (versus simply offering an itemized breakdown of observed trait preference) distorts the MBTI into a 'tiered' (semi-competitive) framework.
    and for those of you who can't make cohesive sense of night's verbose assessment, i'll translate.

    keirsey fucked up.
    we fukin won boys

  4. #54
    no clinkz 'til brooklyn Nocapszy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ama
    Ahh but, sweety, that wasn't what I was referring to. Call it irrational all you want, what I was referring to is the 'higher degree of efficiency'. This is not true for everyone. Others are more efficient using the 'irrational' road.
    maybe.
    but maybe they just don't get found out.

    and by my calculation, logic has actually done a fine job figuring out love.
    we fukin won boys

  5. #55
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    I see emotions as semilogical things, but sensor emotions are completely illogical. I can predict and use the emotions of another N, but ES types are completely unpredicatable. I don't act on emotions, because that overrides my reason and sets me up to be put into a bad situation.

  6. #56
    I'm a star. Kangirl's Avatar
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    It's like calling the grand canyon rational because of the sheer relative scale of it in both space and time compared to human life span and size. Doesn't make any sense.
    But the grand canyon can't make choices...

    Are you talking about consciousness? I.e. are you saying that in order for a decision (for example, a decision to mate with the hottest caveman) to be logical it has to be consciously made along the lines of "this man will provide me with the best genes and my offspring with the best chances of survival and reproduction" vs "damn, this guy's hot, I'm going to have sex with him"?

    Btw, to everyone (including Nocap the Patronizing), I am not trying to *prove* anything with this thread - I deliberately started it out in a way I thought would garner responses, and yes, I have my belief (that emotions are not, by definition, ALWAYS illogical), but mostly I was just trying to spark a discussion. Even the MBTI stuff was sort of a convo sparker - this doesn't have to be 'about' T vs F or NT vs SF etc. etc. - it's mostly just about what one person thinks about this issue vs what another thinks. I'm sure there are some Fs out there who might disagree that emotions can be logical, just like there are some Ts, like myself, who think they can be.

    Once again, this is not all or nothing. This is not 'emotions are ALWAYS logical' vs 'emotions are ALWAYS illogical'. Or, not to me. I'm interested in hearing from people who DO think it's all or nothing, and why.

    Is there anyone claiming that emotions are 100% illogical all the time? I'd still like to hear a short, concise reason for this, especially if it could be given in plain English and not used as a way for x individual to bring up their pet areas (ECK!).

    Emotions can lead us into bad (i.e. illogical) choices. They can lead us into good ones, too. How can we say emotions are always illogical? And, if they are, how should we deal with that fact? Should we simply try to suppress and/or ignore our emotions? Put them on a second tier 100% of the time when making decisions?

    Tell me why reacting with anger, fear etc. to being punched in the face on the street is illogical, too...
    "Only an irrational dumbass, would burn Jews." - Jaguar

    "please give concise answers in plain English" - request from Provoker

  7. #57
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    It's easy to just throw out what you don't understand. If you don't understand something, and if you can't make sense of it, it has no place in your model of the world. Right? Right?



    Emotions can be considered rational responses for something that has triggered them; it's usually just a matter of identifying what that something is. Most people tend to either suppress their emotions or act upon them without thinking through what they mean. Both of these actions are illogical; in both modes of operation, you're ignoring clear and present facts in your overall analysis.

  8. #58
    I'm a star. Kangirl's Avatar
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    What am I throwing out?

    Emotions can be considered rational responses
    This is kind of what I'm saying, btw.
    "Only an irrational dumbass, would burn Jews." - Jaguar

    "please give concise answers in plain English" - request from Provoker

  9. #59
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by squibbles View Post
    I don't think emotions are either rational or irrational; I think they're more arational. If that's a word.

    If someone gets a nice present for their birthday, then they feel loved. That emotion logically follows.

    If someone stays in an abusive relationship because they are convinced the other party really loves them, then their feelings of loyalty don't logically follow.

    Emotions are purely biological and, in my opinion, only happen to coincide with rationality or irrationality. I don't think this means emotions aren't valuable, though. They motivate, they color life. I think they're just as valuable as thought, just in a very different way.
    +1

    This is well said. It clarifies the relationship between logic and emotion by separating the two as distinct processes rather than having the direct relationship of being opposites. I also came across a succinct statement on this same topic at the INTJ forum.
    Emotions can interfere with logical thinking. However, on a basic biochemical level, they can be understood in a logical manner.
    Go INTJs
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

    I want to be just like my mother, even if she is bat-shit crazy.

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kangirl View Post
    What am I throwing out?
    Whoops, sorry.. I was actually agreeing with you. Wholeheartedly.


    Factoring your emotions into your analysis doesn't make you less rational; it makes you more so. It's a matter of exactly how and where they're factored in that matters.

    Here's another tidbit: Neuroticism isn't correlated with MBTI's Feeling preference.

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