User Tag List

First 34567 Last

Results 41 to 50 of 117

  1. #41
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Posts
    4,318

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Not_Me View Post
    Feelings are much more fallible than logic.
    They are? What if one is very good at identifying them?

    Feelings come and go, sure, but in an irrational way?

  2. #42
    Senior Member Typology's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    MBTI
    epyT
    Enneagram
    ...
    Posts
    167

    Default

    Emotions = Irrational

    Only after disaster can we be resurrected.

  3. #43
    lab rat extraordinaire CrystalViolet's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    MBTI
    XNFP
    Enneagram
    5w4 sx/sp
    Posts
    2,170

    Default

    I think Fear as in Flight or fight response is pretty rational. I think Love as in mother/child bond is logical too.
    I think emotions in our cave dwelling days were perhaps simpilar, and more based in rational response, than they are today, now survival of the fittest doesn't apply.
    Currently submerged under an avalanche of books and paper work. I may come back up for air from time to time.
    Real life awaits and she is a demanding mistress.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  4. #44
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Enneagram
    738
    Socionics
    ILE None
    Posts
    7,262

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FireyPheonix View Post
    I think Fear as in Flight or fight response is pretty rational. I think Love as in mother/child bond is logical too.
    You confuse rational with having a positive effect on relative reproductive rates.


    You're basically telling us that any life form exhibiting a behavior of any sort is rational and can self program it's computations patterns through metacognition.
    wow
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
    ... In theory.

    “I’d hate to die twice. It’s so boring.”
    Richard Feynman's last recorded words

    "Great is the human who has not lost his childlike heart."
    Mencius (Meng-Tse), 4th century BCE

  5. #45
    lab rat extraordinaire CrystalViolet's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    MBTI
    XNFP
    Enneagram
    5w4 sx/sp
    Posts
    2,170

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by EcK View Post
    You confuse rational with having a positive effect on relative reproductive rates.


    You're basically telling us that any life form exhibiting a behavior of any sort is rational and can self program it's computations patterns through metacognition.
    wow
    Well, in cave dwelling days I would have thought that larger numbers of surviving offspring ensure the survival of our species. Any mechanism that promotes this is surely a logical move (of course when veiwed in those circumstances).

    So yes, Eck, a behaviour that has positive benefits for it's population in some shape or form is logical in context to the situation.

    You are of course taking the piss out of me, so I'm gonna shutup now.

    P.S. When you put it like that, it sounds simplistic, but if was that simple how come basic computer programmes can't do it? If I had a computer programme that did just that at work I'd be out of job.
    Currently submerged under an avalanche of books and paper work. I may come back up for air from time to time.
    Real life awaits and she is a demanding mistress.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  6. #46
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Enneagram
    738
    Socionics
    ILE None
    Posts
    7,262

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FireyPheonix View Post
    Well, in cave dwelling days I would have thought that larger numbers of surviving offspring ensure the survival of our species. Any mechanism that promotes this is surely a logical move (of course when veiwed in those circumstances).

    So yes, Eck, a behaviour that has positive benefits for it's population in some shape or form is logical in context to the situation.

    You are of course taking the piss out of me, so I'm gonna shutup now.

    P.S. When you put it like that, it sounds simplistic, but if was that simple how come basic computer programmes can't do it? If I had a computer programme that did just that at work I'd be out of job.
    ?
    I'm not sure that you understand how evolution of biological systems actually works : \. You'd never say that otherwise.
    Computers are not self replicating, computers don't mutate, computers don't have to share limited ressources, computers are not able to collect ressources and even if they could, computers weren't left alone for billions of years.
    This has nothing to do with reason.

    It's like calling the grand canyon rational because of the sheer relative scale of it in both space and time compared to human life span and size. Doesn't make any sense.

    If by chance, one among many individual is, thanks to his genetic code and the resulting phenotype, is statistically more likely to reproduce and transmit his\her own relative advantage to his\her kids, then, after xx generations the advantageous mutation will have replaced the 'old version' of the code. Simple maths, large numbers of individuals and generations in a biosphere with limited ressources.
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
    ... In theory.

    “I’d hate to die twice. It’s so boring.”
    Richard Feynman's last recorded words

    "Great is the human who has not lost his childlike heart."
    Mencius (Meng-Tse), 4th century BCE

  7. #47
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    MBTI
    Enfp
    Enneagram
    497 sx/so
    Socionics
    IEE Fi
    Posts
    14,656

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Not_Me View Post
    NT's like myself only think emotions are bad when they conflict with rational decisions. I believe better results can usually be obtained when we let the brain rule the heart.


    Cooperation with others is what allowed us to dominate our world. Nature equipped us with compassion in order to promote cooperation. When we look at the big picture, it is rational to help the victim as long as the risks are reasonable. It increases the likelihood that I will receive help should I become the victim.


    From the perspective of self interest, leniency here is not necessarily irrational. If I ended up on trial, allowing the courts to exercise compassion would increase the likelihood that I will get a second chance. It's all based on the cost/benefit analysis.

    In this example, suppose you let the rapist off easy simple because he's a handsome hunk. This would be a clear example where emotions caused a bad decision since it increases the danger to yourself.

    Feelings are much more fallible than logic.
    Ahh but that 'logic' you use to get that groupsupport, is in fact backed up by emotions, as they will feel an overwhelming need to actually help you. You won't find this in solitary animals, even those that are forced to live in a group (for instance cats, while dogs will help and protect one another).

    The same is true for your second example. It's idd the fact that they can empathize with you that gets you a second chance.

    However, the feelings for a hansome stud would never outweigh the feelings for self preservation in your third example. Even without logic, you would not feel safe around this person, especially if he openly admitted to wanting to hurt people and not feel remorse about what he's done. Fight/Flight is one of the only responses that can override the urge to mate.


    As for your last statement, this is dependent on the individual. So yes, I believe it to be true...for you


    Finally, what you and kant have just in essence proved, I feel is that logic and feelings should never be seperated. It should be an equal marriage, and one should appreciate the other for what it is, and vice versa, without one being considered superior or inferior. Then, and only then do you get the best results. In conflict situations though, where both are saying the opposite, listen to the one you're most adept at and look at which one is in fact important for the situation you're in. That's my experience anycase.
    ★ڿڰۣ✿ℒoѵℯ✿ڿڰۣ★





    "Harm none, do as ye will”

  8. #48
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Posts
    4,601

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Not_Me View Post

    Feelings are much more fallible than logic.
    You've obviously never listened to an episode of The Goon Show. An old radio show where Spike Milligan and friends led the audience on the most surreal and bizarre adventures by simply taking one 'logical' step after another.
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

    "When it all comes down to dust
    I will kill you if I must
    I will help you if I can" - Leonard Cohen

  9. #49
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Posts
    4,601

    Default

    I just looked up the word 'rational' and lots of dictionaries seem to concur that it's about things being consistent, logical and based on reason. So, by that definition, emotions are irrational, because they're often conflicting, inconsistent and based not on logical deduction but subjective reactions which are themselves often extremely nebulous.

    That said, simply saying they're not rational doesn't necessarily equal saying they're stupid or useless. This argument reminds me of the whole battle of the sexes, where you'll get people trying to argue that men and women are or should be the same, taking an inappropriate meaning from the word 'equal'. Men and women are not the same at all - in general, there are many things that one sex does better than the other. But to say for example that men are physically stronger than women, doesn't necessitate a defensive response from women, trying to bring up absurd examples of female body builders who outperform males in arm wrestles. It's just a simple fact, it's something that makes them different, yet difference doesn't exclude equality.

    Emotions and reason are not the same thing. But by saying that the one can do something the other can't, or vice versa, doesn't automatically take away value from either one in its place. To try to argue that "emotions can be just as rational as reason" is like saying "women can be just as physically strong as men" - yes, perhaps in some bizarre and exceptional cases, this can be so, but it doesn't stop it from being generally untrue. It's just building strawmen.
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

    "When it all comes down to dust
    I will kill you if I must
    I will help you if I can" - Leonard Cohen

  10. #50
    lab rat extraordinaire CrystalViolet's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    MBTI
    XNFP
    Enneagram
    5w4 sx/sp
    Posts
    2,170

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by EcK View Post
    ?
    I'm not sure that you understand how evolution of biological systems actually works : \. You'd never say that otherwise.
    Computers are not self replicating, computers don't mutate, computers don't have to share limited ressources, computers are not able to collect ressources and even if they could, computers weren't left alone for billions of years.
    This has nothing to do with reason.

    It's like calling the grand canyon rational because of the sheer relative scale of it in both space and time compared to human life span and size. Doesn't make any sense.

    If by chance, one among many individual is, thanks to his genetic code and the resulting phenotype, is statistically more likely to reproduce and transmit his\her own relative advantage to his\her kids, then, after xx generations the advantageous mutation will have replaced the 'old version' of the code. Simple maths, large numbers of individuals and generations in a biosphere with limited ressources.
    settle petal, I took it more in the context of adaption and learning, which is also a part of the evolution of biological systems, as in behaviour. You saw one thing, I saw another (admittly I took a mighty big intuitive leap too.) Seriously a computer program that learned and adapted within context of it's peremeters would make mint in my industry. That's all....different angles.
    Currently submerged under an avalanche of books and paper work. I may come back up for air from time to time.
    Real life awaits and she is a demanding mistress.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

Similar Threads

  1. [NT] NTs - in what ways are you confident?
    By Two Point Two in forum The NT Rationale (ENTP, INTP, ENTJ, INTJ)
    Replies: 15
    Last Post: 10-06-2009, 02:42 AM
  2. [NT] NT's say the cleverest things!
    By PeaceBaby in forum The NT Rationale (ENTP, INTP, ENTJ, INTJ)
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: 08-18-2009, 08:20 AM
  3. [NT] NTs and Repressed Emotion (ie stress)
    By Ardea in forum The NT Rationale (ENTP, INTP, ENTJ, INTJ)
    Replies: 22
    Last Post: 02-26-2009, 10:01 AM
  4. Newsweek says "we are all now socialists"
    By Risen in forum Politics, History, and Current Events
    Replies: 45
    Last Post: 02-20-2009, 02:33 PM
  5. PB&J-Stop saying this
    By Thursday in forum The Bonfire
    Replies: 13
    Last Post: 09-19-2008, 03:00 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO