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  1. #21
    wholly charmed Spartacuss's Avatar
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    Tell us about the emotion that drove you to make this demand.
    Ti (43); Ne (41.8); Te (33.7); Fi (30.5); Ni (27.5); Se (24.7); Si (21.5); Fe (17.3)
    The More You Know the Less You Need. - Aboriginal Saying

  2. #22
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Emotions can be a type of information in a similar way that physical pain is information. Is physical pain or the response to pain rational? Pain provides the body with information about the outside world and is often accompanied by a reflex to respond. In some ways one could argue that the experience of physical pain is more direct and less subjective than emotional pain which is based more on perception and interpretation. What is interesting about the question of physical pain is that it is not entirely without distortions resulting from perception and interpretation.

    Emotional signals can be more easily misapplied in relationship to the outside world than physical pain signals, but I'm not convinced there is stark dividing line. The system is perhaps more complex, and it takes more time to understand the input, output, and manner in which these are connected, but I suggest it is far more consistent than appearances might suggest. It is just an incredibly complex system, and it is processed a bit differently with each individual, so that it requires an investment of time to understand how it works. I can see why that might not be considered rational when viewed from the inside out, but to observe from the outside and understand any system seems like an rational endeavor to me. I'm not sure how it is different than observing and understanding how the immune system works or the mating rituals of buffalo, except that it is a system that can potentially observe itself.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  3. #23
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
    Not irrational, subjective.
    Quote Originally Posted by htb View Post
    Agreed; I didn't like the phrasing of the original statement.

    To the OP: can't account for feelings. Can account for resulting behavior.



    actually ur both wrong.
    Reason is just subjectivity with a higher degree of efficiency and metacognitive conscious control over it.
    It's like quantum physics, you know carbon 14 decay rate but you don't know exactly what atom desintegrates.
    So ofc evolution and the computational nature of the brain will make it seem like real 'objectivity'. This effect is highly enhanced by the fact all human brains are basically the same, so we'll all agree on what 'logic is'. But as things get more complex than 1+1 our points of views differs and if we ever meet some intelligent alien species their views of reality could be quite different.

    In a world where facts are subjective views imposed by our perception of the said world, you cannot get real objectivity. To have objectivity you need things, and things are artificial constructs made up by the mind.
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
    ... In theory.

    “I’d hate to die twice. It’s so boring.”
    Richard Feynman's last recorded words

    "Great is the human who has not lost his childlike heart."
    Mencius (Meng-Tse), 4th century BCE

  4. #24
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    I don't think emotions are either rational or irrational; I think they're more arational. If that's a word.

    If someone gets a nice present for their birthday, then they feel loved. That emotion logically follows.

    If someone stays in an abusive relationship because they are convinced the other party really loves them, then their feelings of loyalty don't logically follow.

    Emotions are purely biological and, in my opinion, only happen to coincide with rationality or irrationality. I don't think this means emotions aren't valuable, though. They motivate, they color life. I think they're just as valuable as thought, just in a very different way.

  5. #25
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Kant, you rule

    Quote Originally Posted by EcK View Post
    actually ur both wrong.
    Reason is just subjectivity with a higher degree of efficiency and metacognitive conscious control over it.
    Actually, so are you, my little carebear. This might be true for you, but doesn't mean it's necessarily true for others, or for that matter on each subject.
    ★ڿڰۣ✿ℒoѵℯ✿ڿڰۣ★





    "Harm none, do as ye will”

  6. #26
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EcK View Post
    It's either stupid or comparison born in hubris.
    +1

    Quote Originally Posted by EcK View Post
    In a world where facts are subjective views imposed by our perception of the said world, you cannot get real objectivity. To have objectivity you need things, and things are artificial constructs made up by the mind.
    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Kant, you rule
    LOL.

    /lame philosophical tangent
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  7. #27
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    Being a slave to emotion is irrational. That's about all I can say.
    "When a resolute young fellow steps up the great bully, the world, and takes him boldly by the beard, he is often surprised to find that it comes off in his hand, and that it was only tied on to scare away the timid adventurers." - Ralph Waldo Emerson

  8. #28
    I'm a star. Kangirl's Avatar
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    Define rational.
    OK, I'll go a little further into what I said. My initial post was short and concise for a reason - mostly because I wanted to make a point about the ton of different takes on it that people can have. Some people in this thread seem to have assumed I meant something like "emotion is ALWAYS rational" - that having a feeling/acting on it, somehow makes it rational/true/pick your word.

    That isn't what I meant. Again, I'll talk about motivation for posting the thread, though. I see a LOT of NTs dismissing emotion outright, all the time. There seems to be a belief, with some, that emotion is *always* a bad thing, that it needs to be controlled/ignored 100% of the time if one is to remain a 'rational' person. And I just personally completely disagree with this and would hope never to live in a world where emotions are considered second rate, somehow, regardless of context.

    I'll try some examples:

    1.You're walking down the street. A stranger walks up to you and punches you, hard, in the face. What's you emotional reaction to this? How is it irrational, if you think it is? Also, do you think it is genuinely possible for a human being to have an unemotional response to an incident like this? How is reacting with fear and anger to a threat/aggression an irrational response?

    2. You're walking down the street and witness the above scenario happening to someone else. What's the rational response here? Is compassion a rational response? Would helping out based on feelings of concern for the victim be rational? Why or why not? And if you say it wouldn't be because of the risk to self of doing so, what about the larger implications re:society - in terms of eprsonal interest, would you rather live in a society where you can count on a stranger to intervene? Or not? What if you were the victim? Is it not logical to try and do what you can to bring that society (where people help each other out) about?

    And another one, in the courtroom. Is there anyone who believes that compassion has no place in a courtroom? Does context matter at all? Does human empathy/sympathy have any place in a courtroom? If you say no, explain why. Does context never matter? Has there ever been a case whereby someone is guilty according to the letter of the law, but possibly not deserving of harsh punishment due to circumstances?

    Again, emotion can lead us to do stupid things ALL THE TIME. I'm not saying otherwise. I'm not even really advancing a solid belief here (other than the very broad "emotion is a good, useful, and not irrational thing, some of the time"), I'm just questioning this what-seems-to-be-largely-NT phenomenon of somehow viewing emotion or feeling or compassion as a weakness, as 'wrong' somehow.

    Btw, quibbles with word definitions seem unavoidable here. If you have a different def then explain it, pls.

    Amar: Thanks! The hugs help me to emotionally deal with the fact that i've damaged my NT cred with this thread.
    "Only an irrational dumbass, would burn Jews." - Jaguar

    "please give concise answers in plain English" - request from Provoker

  9. #29
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Oh honey, you've got balls and I admire that. Don't let them get to you
    ★ڿڰۣ✿ℒoѵℯ✿ڿڰۣ★





    "Harm none, do as ye will”

  10. #30
    The Black Knight Domino's Avatar
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    And I love your pink hot pants. *tushie slap*
    eNFJ 4w3 sx/so 468 tritype
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    RLUEI, Choleric/Melancholic
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