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  1. #11
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    99% of what I say is from perched in a tree somewhere. I have no vested interest in the words, they are merely observations for the most part. When I observe something that an F finds pleasant, s/he feels close to me. When I observe something unpleasant, I am despised. Value judgments are placed on my words. But it goes even deeper than that. If I find something pleasant, I am viewed as a pleasant person. If it's something unpleasant, I am viewed as a bad person. Value judgments are also placed on my character. All the while, there is no emotional context on my part. I think this can be foolish behavior.

    I always see it coming. Sometimes I change my words to avoid an unnecessary emotional breakdown, other times I don't care. But I somehow seem to evoke strong reactions in F types either way. I can make no judgment, however, on what an 'emotional fault' is.

  2. #12
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    I think T/F is difficult to judge from the outside because both can emulate each other.

    T's can develop F-style values... but they're not based on inherent values of what is important to the T, they're based on life experience that has led to certain values actually seeming to be inherent within the structure of human community and psychological development. I.e., they're DERIVED "objective" values.

    And if an F's valueset seems to emulate more "objective" reality by T standards... well, the same sorts of issues. Besides, no one is truly "objective," so there's always a mix of function use going on to some degree; it's more a matter of what is prioritized.

    People are sort of like black boxes and until you get your nose under the surface and see what wires are actually connected, when the end results look similarly cosmetically people get confused.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  3. #13
    Senior Member Into It's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post

    I always see it coming. Sometimes I change my words to avoid an unnecessary emotional breakdown, other times I don't care. But I somehow seem to evoke strong reactions in F types either way. I can make no judgment, however, on what an 'emotional fault' is.
    By that I simply meant what T's would view as a fault, namely, placing such importance on emotions that we would allow them to lead us into poor, irrational decisions.
    An inscription above the gate to Hell:
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  4. #14
    Senior Member Into It's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I think T/F is difficult to judge from the outside because both can emulate each other.

    [B]T's can develop F-style values... but they're not based on inherent values of what is important to the T, they're based on life experience that has led to certain values actually seeming to be inherent within the structure of human community and psychological development. I.e., they're DERIVED "objective" values.
    Are you sure that this isn't just how an INTP would see it, with Si+Fe? Personally, I would expect an INTJ to be more morally individualistic, and this is in line with what I've observed so far.
    An inscription above the gate to Hell:
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  5. #15
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Into It View Post
    By that I simply meant what T's would view as a fault, namely, placing such importance on emotions that we would allow them to lead us into poor, irrational decisions.
    Ok, I see your point and understand the definition better. In an unfortunate truth: I can't speak for all Ts but yes I personally see it as a severe flaw. And I, unfortunately, view people who make a majority of emotionally based decisions to be weak minded, like a child. And I know some children that I hold in higher regard than most Fs.

    I am not proud of this viewpoint, however, but it would be dishonest to pretend otherwise. I don't think I, or Ts in general, are better than anyone else and I recognize our own specific flaws as well. But when speaking specifically of emotionally based decision making, this is my conclusion.

  6. #16
    . Blank's Avatar
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    I'll be blunt. I don't care.

    I think there are many foolish F's. Does that mean that all F's are fools? Of course not. When a person values their "feelings" over using reason and sense, I tend to think they're foolish unless if their feelings naturally coincide with the rational or logical reaction.

    I find one of the hardest things to figure out is S vs. N, not F vs. T, because I can easily determine T vs. F in a conversation, but I can't determine S vs. N without study.
    Ti = 19 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Te = 16[][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Ne = 16[][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Fi = 15 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Si = 12 [][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Ni = 12 [][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Se = 11[][][][][][][][][][][]
    Fe = 0

    -----------------
    Tiger got to hunt, bird got to fly;
    Man got to sit and wonder why, why, why;
    Tiger got to sleep, bird got to land;
    Man got to tell himself he understand

  7. #17
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Into It View Post
    Like I said in my Poll Thread, F v T is the hardest quality for me to pick out except for PvJ. I made that thread because my hypothesis was that T types would rarely say that.

    If my hypothesis is correct, it follows that I emotionally project unto whoever I am with, and I only find T's insensitive when I am unable to construe what has been said in a positive light. All the other things they say that are equally objective, I incept with a little unconscious mending, so it sounds to me more sensitive or heartfelt than how it was really said, essentially making the person look a little more 'F' to me. It also follows that T types, in their objectivity, would be less prone to making this error, and so they would be able to see F types as F types pretty much all the time. So, while I see a T as his true self, which is only sometimes, I can see his faults better. T types should then be able to see the faults of the F types almost constantly. That is why I ask you, T's: Are F's inept? Are we innately inferior to T's at all things that do not require the heart?

    A better question is: Can you see our 'emotional fault' at all times?
    And what would those things be?

  8. #18
    Senior Member Into It's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wildcat View Post
    And what would those things be?
    Quote Originally Posted by Into It View Post
    By that I simply meant what T's would view as a fault, namely, placing such importance on emotions that we would allow them to lead us into poor, irrational decisions.
    .
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  9. #19
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Into It View Post
    Are you sure that this isn't just how an INTP would see it, with Si+Fe? Personally, I would expect an INTJ to be more morally individualistic, and this is in line with what I've observed so far.
    Perhaps you can use that sort of insight to better tease out INTP from INTJ (because I agree that INTJ's seem more inherently moralistic, they just have "convinctions" based on Ni ways of seeing). But my point is still that you can't just look at an action and determine whether it is T or F just by the action itself, and then use that to determine someone's probable type... even if you can look at "whole type" and try to pattern up that way.

    (In reality, I endorse a more "whole pattern" matchup in terms of MBTI type identification rather than the singular function-use style I see used here far too often. Basically the data has to be triangulated and cross-referenced before being evaluated and understood -- the relationship between the data points is more helpful in determining type, not the data points themselves.)
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  10. #20
    Senior Member Into It's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Perhaps you can use that sort of insight to better tease out INTP from INTJ (because I agree that INTJ's seem more inherently moralistic, they just have "convinctions" based on Ni ways of seeing). But my point is still that you can't just look at an action and determine whether it is T or F just by the action itself, and then use that to determine someone's probable type... even if you can look at "whole type" and try to pattern up that way.

    (In reality, I endorse a more "whole pattern" matchup in terms of MBTI type identification rather than the singular function-use style I see used here far too often. Basically the data has to be triangulated and cross-referenced before being evaluated and understood -- the relationship between the data points is more helpful in determining type, not the data points themselves.)
    Hmm, completely agree with this. So I wonder if I gave the impression that I disagree with this?

    But if you already know a person is an F, and they behave in an irrational manner when they get flustered, which is often, then that would be the negative sort of quality I was talking about.
    An inscription above the gate to Hell:
    "Eternal Love also created me"

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