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  1. #21
    Glowy Goopy Goodness The_Liquid_Laser's Avatar
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    I like to participate in arguments where the goal of the participants is to reach a common understanding or at least a shared enlightenment. I do not like arguing with people who feel like they are trying to "win", nor do I appreciate those who act like arguing in itself is bad.

    Occasionally I also like to debate, but debating is more for the sake of listeners than for the participants debating.
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  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon67 View Post
    That's the way to bet, generally, I suppose...but I would hate to run across a capital-T Truth, have someone question it, and then discard the idea just because I wasn't perceptive enough to give the appropriate defense. I'm not going to judge my ideas by my debating skills; it's not fair to the ideas. I don't think fast enough on my feet to be able to do that.
    Same here. I never seem to actually win arguments, and in arguments it rarely seems like someone else's good points or things they notice well come across.

    Arguments, even logical ones, have a tendency to degrade into one side vs. another, with out much room for new ideas of combinations to come in.

  3. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon67 View Post
    That's the way to bet, generally, I suppose...but I would hate to run across a capital-T Truth, have someone question it, and then discard the idea just because I wasn't perceptive enough to give the appropriate defense. I'm not going to judge my ideas by my debating skills; it's not fair to the ideas. I don't think fast enough on my feet to be able to do that.
    Ideas are a dime a dozen (or cost far less than that). How do you sepratedthe good ideas from the bad ones? I understand that sometimes, we need to incubate on incorrect notions that are on the right track to get good ideas. But do you not consider constrocting an argument to support your idea, anywhere along the lines?

    Do you see any value in a logical argument?

    Quote Originally Posted by oberon67 View Post
    And likewise, I don't think being glib or clever ought to substitute for being wise. Many a time I have argued against a thesis I have later adopted. This has very little to do with who won or lost the argument.
    Do you equate having honed Crtical Thinking skills with being "clever" instead of being wise?

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  4. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zergling View Post
    Same here. I never seem to actually win arguments, and in arguments it rarely seems like someone else's good points or things they notice well come across.
    I really prefer it when I "loose" an argument, though I don't think of it in terms of winning or losing.

    If someone comes up with a sound argument for which every premise is some thing I believe, and leads to a conclusion I etiher did not believe or did not take note of, I consider it a great learning experience.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zergling View Post
    Arguments, even logical ones, have a tendency to degrade into one side vs. another, with out much room for new ideas of combinations to come in.
    I've noticed that too, I think its is a great loss. I think if more people apreciated the beauty of a well constructed argument, then we would neither loose good ideas nor get into "one side vs. anothe" situations.

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
    Robot Fusion
    "As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Wheeler
    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

  5. #25
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    epistemological, teleological, scientific, or even mathematical?

    For me this hunger for an argument feels a lot like hunger for food. I tend to overeat, when I haven't had my intelectual fill.

    Anyone have similar issues?

    Maybe experienced in a very different way? Use your imagination.

    Yes, this is the typical T need. The need to criticize that parallels the need to empathize in Fs. This is what inspired men to go to war throughout history. Among NTs wars were fought on pen and paper and STs with shield and sword.

    The need to criticize derives from the need for competence which stems from the need to be independent (lack of comfort with support from others because the F is out of tune), and in order to be competent, one tends to be self-critical in order to ensure they are the best they can be. Then they naturally try to improve other entities the way they do their own--through criticism. Which in itself often shows as an antagonistical attitude towards others, and hence this is the reason why wars were more appealing to men than women. And why science and philosophy attract more male admirers than female, as it requires critical thinking which is predominantly a T-oriented enterprise and most men are Thinkers.

    The need to argue among NTs is desirable and should be sated as being challenged tends to be highly beneficial. But, as previously mentioned, in the end it all goes back to Ts being uncomfortable with emotion and to avoid dealing with emotion by relying on others they deemed for it to be very important to be independent which required competence.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

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  6. #26
    Senior Member celesul's Avatar
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    I don't like to argue just to argue, but I enjoy debating. I'm on the debate team, which is definitely a good way to get the intellectual stimulation without the personal attacks, as the type of debate I like is more formal and idea based. I hate debate based on attacking the other person as a person, and not paying attention to ideas. Is it a bad sign that I would rather vote for a high school debater than a politician because the high schooler seems more mature?
    "'You scoundrel, you have wronged me,' hissed the philosopher. 'May you live forever!'" - Ambrose Bierce

  7. #27
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    As long as Ne is active enough to keep Ti in check everything is rosy dandy .. Once things get heated enough for Ti to race off without the backing of Ne, then things end up tunnel-vision'ed pretty fast ...

    Debate to understand, not to critique .. thats the key .. hard to do though ..

  8. #28
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alexkreuz View Post
    Debate to understand, not to critique .. thats the key .. hard to do though ..
    Understanding is best reached through critiquing, by improving your ideas and those of others critical thinking. A better way to think of it would be critique to get an understanding and not to appease your prejudices.

    People tend not to behave in a destructive fashion in debates if their purpose truly is the truth, yet very much do when they are out only for their own vainglory.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

    “No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.”---Samuel Johnson

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  9. #29
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    Not just for NT's! I enjoy and DO hunger for arguments but only under very specific circumstances. It's only worth it to me if I know it's not going to get personal and that everyone involved can keep the debate away from his feelings. If someone is going to get his feelings hurt because I am ripping into his ideas, or if he gets personally involved and will attack me as a person - then I avoid arguing at all costs. That's just stressful.

    So basically, I only want to argue with people I know and understand. But it's more than worth it when I do get that chance because I find a good argument is the best way to find every possible flaw in my reasoning. I've learned more from good arguments than anything else - sometimes I even learn what I think from what I construct on the fly.

  10. #30
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Sometimes i can long for a rigorous debate, but context is important. I had a debate in class with arbitrary sides drawn and there was a lady on the opposing side who had that calm, smart, logical demeanor and made the best points on her team. I had a little urge to debate with her just because her mind was very clear and she was cute. If i trust the person it can be fun, more often i enjoy observing first. I probably wouldn't be up to snuff to debate with you ygolo, but wouldn't be against trying.

    You have both debating requirements: a desire to think logically and kinda cute. More likely i'd rather watch, though.
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