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  1. #11
    Oberon
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    epistemological, teleological, scientific, or even mathematical?

    For me this hunger for an argument feels a lot like hunger for food. I tend to overeat, when I haven't had my intelectual fill.

    Anyone have similar issues?

    Maybe experienced in a very different way? Use your imagination.
    I never enjoy arguments, but I frequently find myself in them. The surest way to make me give up on an argument and walk away is to make me think that you're arguing for the sake of argument.

    When and if I debate it's always over topics in which I have a definite point of view, and I debate in support of that point of view. When people oppose me in a debate, I naturally assume that they're doing the same. It's a foolish assumption, I've discovered, but I repeatedly do it because it's my default state. I want to talk about things I care about; I want to work with ideas I really believe in. I want to come as close as I can to the truth.

    Using debate skills to play a mind game is, to me, as exciting as watching paint dry. If I ever post a message to anyone quoting Captain Picard saying "Romulans...it's always a chess game with them," you'll know they've struck this nerve.

    I've learned, too, that debate on the internet is frequently not debate, but rather a process of striking a succession of poses for millions of up-late-at-night readers to admire. I don't much care for that either.

  2. #12
    Senior Member Sahara's Avatar
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    I enjoy debates, I am always seeking likeminded to people, or near enough to thrash out certain subjects. My mating ritual lol pretty much involves heady debates, argueing, challenging my ideas and me theirs, the more intelligent the man, the more intrigued I will become, I lose total interest when someone has no debate skills, or no willingness to touch certain subjects.

    I will even play devils advocate with a friend who already agrees with me, or me with her, just to debate and ensure an idea goes through me properly, if I can;t debate a topic often enough, then I can;t get to a final resolution on it.
    "No one can be free of the chains that surround them"

  3. #13
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon67 View Post
    I never enjoy arguments, but I frequently find myself in them. The surest way to make me give up on an argument and walk away is to make me think that you're arguing for the sake of argument.
    :yim_rolling_on_the_

    No....! Do you realize that sometimes in personal conversation (not here on the forums, but in correspondence I've seen where ideas get "debated"), you come across as trying to stir up conflict in order to have some excitement?

    Sigh. It's a wonder people haven't wiped each other off the globe, considering how easy it is for us to misconstrue each other.

    When and if I debate it's always over topics in which I have a definite point of view, and I debate in support of that point of view. When people oppose me in a debate, I naturally assume that they're doing the same. It's a foolish assumption, I've discovered, but I repeatedly do it because it's my default state. I want to talk about things I care about; I want to work with ideas I really believe in. I want to come as close as I can to the truth.
    My goal is to ensure a clear picture of the problem (which then leads to a more accurate/clearer solution) by making sure that all possibilities are adequately represented. I usually "fill in" with the viewpoint being underrepresented.

    The best way to find the weaknesses in a line of reasoning is to challenge it; if it survives, then it was worthy, and if not, then it deserves to be abandoned.

    But I know this comes across as playing devil's advocate sometimes, even though my intentions are not [um, usually!] to do that.

    I've learned, too, that debate on the internet is frequently not debate, but rather a process of striking a succession of poses for millions of up-late-at-night readers to admire.
    Well, that's true.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  4. #14
    filling some space UnitOfPopulation's Avatar
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    People weasel out of discussions too easily by saying that it would constitute an argument. Yet this much-feared "argument" can be just a method to (attempt to) arrive at a good conclusion, as in adversarial judical systems where legal representatives of the both parties fight for their client's cause.

    For someone who thinks that "people can say anything they want", I can see a point why they would avoid an argument. If people dont voluntarily adhere to reasonable debating rules and they dont trust others to do so, who would bother?

    It needs exhaustive knowledge of all the biases and logical fallacys to debate "perfectly". For example, straw-man fallacy, true scotchman, argumentum ad hominem, argumentum ad baculum, etc are such flawed debating tactics that intuitively (yes, N) feel good to some, but not to others. Not everyone is in the position to prove such point invalid, even if they were dead sure that something doesn't match up. Having bad experience of previous debates, and not the debating skills of a layer, many reasonable people decline from starting an "argument".

  5. #15
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    I would say so, but only if I can do so without hurting anyone. There are times I just want to look at a statement/idea, reveal every flaw I see, and then have the person reveal all the flaws they see, until neither of us see any flaws in the other's argument, because then it makes the most sense. This is how I refine ideas, but people often either tire of it or get offended, so I try to avoid it when I'm worried about the other person's feelings or my own regarding the matter, but sometimes I can't help saying something critical about a personal matter, and that's when things go south...

  6. #16
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    when i was younger i enjoyed logical debates just for the stimulation of it .. but as i got older and more deliberate in my opinions and thoughts and began to attempt to explain them with goals in mind and find that they are not understood or immediately critiqued without proper consideration given, i find myself more frustrated and drained by the experience than energized ..

    i think it depends on my intent .. if its an impersonal BS subject then i can go in logical loops forever and ever .. but if its a personal or other intimate subject, i find myself easily frustrated when i feel as if logical rebuttal does not give proper consideration ..

    so no, i prefer sunshine, butterflies, and green tea on a rolling green hill ..

  7. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by alexkreuz View Post
    when i was younger i enjoyed logical debates just for the stimulation of it .. but as i got older and more deliberate in my opinions and thoughts and began to attempt to explain them with goals in mind and find that they are not understood or immediately critiqued without proper consideration given, i find myself more frustrated and drained by the experience than energized ....
    Is it really just for "stimulation"? I thought it was part of the pursuit of truth.

    Analyzing, constructing and de-constructing arguments is, I would say, the main Critical Thinking skill.

    I try to be careful to only focus on the arguments, and not
    make things personal, but I am not always successful.

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
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    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
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  8. #18
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    Is it really just for "stimulation"? I thought it was part of the pursuit of truth.

    Analyzing, constructing and de-constructing arguments is, I would say, the main Critical Thinking skill.

    I try to be careful to only focus on the arguments, and not
    make things personal, but I am not always successful.
    Just for stimulation .. To see if you can "out-logically-think" another .. No intention whatsoever to pursue greater truth ..

    Hmm I know what you're saying but I've always found the discourse on the internet to be on a sub-par level .. Not a level I'd consider going to when pursuing truth .. When pursuing truth I usually stick with encyclopedias, books, articles, journals, etc.

    I loath debates (read personal bias) because more often than not I see two parties more concerned with making their point of view known and imposing the dominance of their point of view, rather than opening their point of view to critique in order to better understand positive and negative aspects of their own point of view.

    Also like you said, considering I'm not too big on the feeling aspect, its usually when i TRY to not make things personal that they get personal. :steam: My attempt to not make things personal is inversely proportional to my making things personal

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by alexkreuz View Post
    when i was younger i enjoyed logical debates just for the stimulation of it .. but as i got older and more deliberate in my opinions and thoughts and began to attempt to explain them with goals in mind and find that they are not understood or immediately critiqued without proper consideration given, i find myself more frustrated and drained by the experience than energized...
    What he said. That said, I can still enjoy a good "heated" conversation, be it debate or argument or whatever, but only in very random circumstances and with people who get the spirit and don't take anything too personal (that is, extremely few people I know)

  10. #20
    Oberon
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    The best way to find the weaknesses in a line of reasoning is to challenge it; if it survives, then it was worthy, and if not, then it deserves to be abandoned.
    That's the way to bet, generally, I suppose...but I would hate to run across a capital-T Truth, have someone question it, and then discard the idea just because I wasn't perceptive enough to give the appropriate defense. I'm not going to judge my ideas by my debating skills; it's not fair to the ideas. I don't think fast enough on my feet to be able to do that.

    And likewise, I don't think being glib or clever ought to substitute for being wise. Many a time I have argued against a thesis I have later adopted. This has very little to do with who won or lost the argument.

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