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Thread: XNTP & debating

  1. #41
    Senior Member 2XtremeENFP's Avatar
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    I think an interesting point was all XNTPs agree that it's not about winning, it's about getting wiser? Is this true? Or just an idealistic "NT" thing to say?

    For me, granted I'm NF, it all depends on the Argument.

    Another interesting point was that INTPs flip flop in their arguments. I've called this out on my friend before and he said it's because of his "Ti trying to figure everything out".. What does he mean by this? As much as I read about Te vs. Ti, I never fully understand it. How could we see these functions in an ENFP vs. iNTP debate?

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2XtremeENFP View Post
    I think an interesting point was all XNTPs agree that it's not about winning, it's about getting wiser? Is this true? Or just an idealistic "NT" thing to say?
    For me, it's about discovering the truth of any given situation. I have what I see as true from my limited perspective, the other person has theirs, and through testing of each others' points, we can get closer to what's actually happening. Which is why it confuses me when people get emotional, as if attacking their theory is attacking them.

  3. #43
    now! in shell form INA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2XtremeENFP View Post
    Another interesting point was that INTPs flip flop in their arguments. I've called this out on my friend before and he said it's because of his "Ti trying to figure everything out".. What does he mean by this? As much as I read about Te vs. Ti, I never fully understand it. How could we see these functions in an ENFP vs. iNTP debate?
    Do they flip flop or are they rigid? So confused . . . Anyway, if they seem to come at it from different angles or start to assume the opposite for arguments' sake, perhaps this is why:

    Quote Originally Posted by nocebo View Post
    Everyone has an intelligent point somewhere in their words... they're just missing some other bit of information, which I point out.
    I'll even bring up a point that supports the other person but that s/he hasn't mentioned sometimes. It's not flipflopping. It's bringing it up to examine then incorporate/discard it.

    Certain people's drive to be deemed W1NNAR rather than be correct compels them to discount relevant, sometimes crucial, information or distinctions. I tend to see this as an over-investment in the point argued (and it strikes me as emotional).

    On the other hand, the "rigidness" complained of is often a reluctance to let compelling yet ultimately irrelevant points dirty the pool on the way to crystal clearness.
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  4. #44
    Is Willard in Footloose!! CJ99's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2XtremeENFP View Post
    I think an interesting point was all XNTPs agree that it's not about winning, it's about getting wiser? Is this true? Or just an idealistic "NT" thing to say?
    The whole reason NTs argue is because it brings us closer to the truth. We also argue for sport. But we enjoy the sport because intellectually challenges us like SPs enjoy sports for their physical challenge.
    "I'd never die for my beliefs, I might be wrong"

    "Is it not enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe there are fairys at the bottom of it too"

    "Intelligence is being able to hold too opposing views in the mind at the one time without going crazy" - Now all I need to figure out is if I'm intelligent or crazy!

  5. #45
    Member nocebo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2XtremeENFP View Post
    I think an interesting point was all XNTPs agree that it's not about winning, it's about getting wiser? Is this true? Or just an idealistic "NT" thing to say?
    I think it's true. ENTPs and INTPs will often reach different conclusions, but it doesn't matter as long as the logic is solid on both sides. I find that my "arguments" with ENTPs often end up becoming a crazy exchange of information.

  6. #46
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InaF3157 View Post
    I'll even bring up a point that supports the other person but that s/he hasn't mentioned sometimes. It's not flipflopping. It's bringing it up to examine then incorporate/discard it.

    Certain people's drive to be deemed W1NNAR rather than be correct compels them to discount relevant, sometimes crucial, information or distinctions. I tend to see this as an over-investment in the point argued (and it strikes me as emotional).
    Yeah, if someone can't confront and rationally assess the strongest points the opposing argument has, even if the opposing side hasn't thought of them, I think that loses the objectivity war. And I would rather be objective than have bystanders and the person I'm arguing against think I've won.

    A lot of the time I'll have more foreknowledge of the topic than the other person, so if I don't point out the argument the other person is grasping for, I just plow over them.

  7. #47
    . Blank's Avatar
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    If an INTP is rigid, there are probably a few reasons for it:

    1. They're agitated
    2. They could very strongly believe that they are right and could be zealous about it. (It's funny because all you have to do is only argue for an hour. They'll still think they're right, but their views will be changed to your side...if you're a good enough debater.)
    3. Other stuff.

    If an INTP is flip-floppy, this could also be for a few different reasons:

    1. If the debate has drug on without going anywhere, they could be playing devil's advocate.
    2. It could be a change of tactics, "attacking" your view.
    3. They may not have a strong opinion and are letting out verbally about 5% of what's going on in their head.
    4. etc.

    Good luck actually trying to change an INTP's mind though. You've got to really know your stuff or manage to hit some kind of truth while BS'ing.
    Ti = 19 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Te = 16[][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Ne = 16[][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Fi = 15 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Si = 12 [][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Ni = 12 [][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Se = 11[][][][][][][][][][][]
    Fe = 0

    -----------------
    Tiger got to hunt, bird got to fly;
    Man got to sit and wonder why, why, why;
    Tiger got to sleep, bird got to land;
    Man got to tell himself he understand

  8. #48
    Nips away your dignity Fluffywolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2XtremeENFP View Post
    I think an interesting point was all XNTPs agree that it's not about winning, it's about getting wiser? Is this true? Or just an idealistic "NT" thing to say?

    For me, granted I'm NF, it all depends on the Argument.

    Another interesting point was that INTPs flip flop in their arguments. I've called this out on my friend before and he said it's because of his "Ti trying to figure everything out".. What does he mean by this? As much as I read about Te vs. Ti, I never fully understand it. How could we see these functions in an ENFP vs. iNTP debate?
    I love flip flopping!

    It's a great way to open my mind, to try and see the bigger picture of it all and eventually reach a more articulated and better conclusion.

    It involves cutting arguements that might not seem all that related at first but might fit into the final conclusion.

    It's definatly a Ti process. See it like an investigation.



    And getting wiser is always my aim in any serious discussion. Winning is only relevant if it's a humorous debate. :P
    ~Self-depricating Megalomaniacal Superwolf

  9. #49
    Nips away your dignity Fluffywolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blank View Post
    You've got to really know your stuff or manage to hit some kind of truth while BS'ing.
    I love it when that happens.

    Me on about some problem or thesis. Some other person start to Bs around about it, accidentally triggering my Ti-Ne. I'm suddenly serious like "You're right, ah, thanks a lot." And he's like "What did I say?".

    ~Self-depricating Megalomaniacal Superwolf

  10. #50
    Senior Member 2XtremeENFP's Avatar
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    Excuse me for being somewhat uneducated, I am still learning...but...

    ENTPs Ne-Ti order versus INTPs Ti-Ne order...in what ways does this affect them?

    What's an ENTPs thought process in a heated discussion?
    What's an INTPs thought process in a heated discussion?

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