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Thread: XNTP & debating

  1. #31
    Member nocebo's Avatar
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    It's interesting that INTPs are coming off as closed-minded and stubborn in an argument. I can do several 360 turns when I'm "arguing." XD
    And argument is usually playtime for me, also.

    However, I'm completely clueless as to whether a person is understanding my words or not, and the extreme conciseness can come off as rigid, but it's really not! My goal is just to be as accurate and logical as possible, even if my viewpoint is changing. (That doesn't really sound like playtime, does it? But it is! Oh, it is!)

  2. #32
    Member nocebo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    Well, most of the time, INTPs are almost devoid of any F function. They are global system thinkers, they simply do not understand Feelers, or look very childish when under the influence of Fe or Fi.

    And you know, people often attack what they do not understand, or pretend it doesn't exist if the new parameter doesn't seem to fit, if they cannot integrate it into their internal system.

    ---

    A typical ENTP will also experience lot of difficulties to understand Fi (it's really alien for us), but at last, we do not dismiss it as a possible valid behavior. You won't be judged or considered "inferior" for that. It's the magic of Ne-dom!
    It's not so much ignoring feelings all together... but they don't really have a place in debate. Feelings are important and all, but since they're subjective, they're not the same for everyone. How can you persuade someone of something if it's based on your subjective feelings?

    It's still a valid viewpoint.
    It's just... not what the debate is for.

    (Now... if someone asked me... advice on overcoming a relationship problem, then it would be necessary to take feelings into consideration, and I would. Everything works in a context.)

  3. #33
    Senior Member chris1207's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nocebo View Post
    My goal is just to be as accurate and logical as possible, even if my viewpoint is changing.
    I've been reading this whole topic to spot something like this. What INTP's don't seem to realize is that if you change your viewpoint or the whole basis for your argument in a debate you've lost. No J is going to respect a single word you say because you obviously don't know what you're talking about. You can dress it up in T garnishes all you want but that doesn't change the fact that you've conceded the debate.
    "... you think deeply about stuff [that] nobody cares about and hardly anybody can understand you." ~ Peguy talking about Ni users. So true.

  4. #34
    Nips away your dignity Fluffywolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chris1207 View Post
    I've been reading this whole topic to spot something like this. What INTP's don't seem to realize is that if you change your viewpoint or the whole basis for your argument in a debate you've lost. No J is going to respect a single word you say because you obviously don't know what you're talking about. You can dress it up in T garnishes all you want but that doesn't change the fact that you've conceded the debate.
    I thought the point of debating is to get the wiser, not to beat others in it.
    ~Self-depricating Megalomaniacal Superwolf

  5. #35
    Is Willard in Footloose!! CJ99's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    Well, most of the time, INTPs are almost devoid of any F function. They are global system thinkers, they simply do not understand Feelers, or look very childish when under the influence of Fe or Fi.

    And you know, people often attack what they do not understand, or pretend it doesn't exist if the new parameter doesn't seem to fit, if they cannot integrate it into their internal system.

    ---

    A typical ENTP will also experience lot of difficulties to understand Fi (it's really alien for us), but at last, we do not dismiss it as a possible valid behavior. You won't be judged or considered "inferior" for that. It's the magic of Ne-dom!
    And most of the time, we are more curious than obnoxiously argumentative. We are curious even of Fi, and what this function could possibly mean.

    Extreme intellectual curiosity is a distinct trait we share with our ENFP brethren. We take into consideration every possibility, however dissonant it may appear at first glance. Anything that gets us out of boredoom.
    Yeah you have a point about curiosity in Fi. I actually try debate my sis and my ESFP friend to try to figure out what i'm feeling at times.
    "I'd never die for my beliefs, I might be wrong"

    "Is it not enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe there are fairys at the bottom of it too"

    "Intelligence is being able to hold too opposing views in the mind at the one time without going crazy" - Now all I need to figure out is if I'm intelligent or crazy!

  6. #36
    Is Willard in Footloose!! CJ99's Avatar
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    I think ENFPs problem might be that INTPs will go more indepth whereas ENTPs thinker wider and ENFPs like ENTPs prefer to go wide and look at all the points of view rather than go more indepth which most INTPs will go.
    Not that ENxPs can't go indepth or INTPs go wide. I mean relative to the other they can't go as wide or indepth.
    "I'd never die for my beliefs, I might be wrong"

    "Is it not enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe there are fairys at the bottom of it too"

    "Intelligence is being able to hold too opposing views in the mind at the one time without going crazy" - Now all I need to figure out is if I'm intelligent or crazy!

  7. #37
    Senior Member Winds of Thor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2XtremeENFP View Post
    how can you tell the difference between ENTPs and INTPs in the style that they debate?

    I enjoy debating with ENTPs but not with INTPs and I can't put my finger on why.
    INTPs can have an attitude which permeates the debate...It's like "Such and such is obvious you idiot. I can't believe I am having to get everyone else up to speed on this."
    "..And the eight and final rule: If this is your first time at Fight Club, you have to fight."
    'Men are meant to be with women. The rest is perversion and mental illness.'

  8. #38
    Ruler of the Stars Asterion's Avatar
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    I know an ISTJ that does the same thing as the INTPs, he argues, but it's in such a serious (rigid?) way. He likes the information gained from it, he likes to talk to people and such things, but in the end, the other person ends up frustrated. I can argue with the same people (unintentionally arguing of course), and it's usually good fun (unless I completely fail to get my view across).
    5 3 9

  9. #39
    Phoenix Incarnate Sentura's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Avatar7 View Post
    INTPs can have an attitude which permeates the debate...It's like "Such and such is obvious you idiot. I can't believe I am having to get everyone else up to speed on this."
    exactly! it's their S.
    i hunt INXPs for bounty
    FUNCTION ORDER FOR THOSE THAT CANNOT UNDERSTAND WHAT ENXP MEANS: Ne > Ni > Fi=Ti > *

    ...people tell me i have wildfires in my eyes

  10. #40
    Member nocebo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chris1207 View Post
    I've been reading this whole topic to spot something like this. What INTP's don't seem to realize is that if you change your viewpoint or the whole basis for your argument in a debate you've lost. No J is going to respect a single word you say because you obviously don't know what you're talking about. You can dress it up in T garnishes all you want but that doesn't change the fact that you've conceded the debate.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffywolf View Post
    I thought the point of debating is to get the wiser, not to beat others in it.
    Ditto. I think both XNTPs agree on this bit.
    Winning/losing doesn't mean much. It's what you get from the process.

    Quote Originally Posted by King-Of-Despair View Post
    I know an ISTJ that does the same thing as the INTPs, he argues, but it's in such a serious (rigid?) way. He likes the information gained from it, he likes to talk to people and such things, but in the end, the other person ends up frustrated. I can argue with the same people (unintentionally arguing of course), and it's usually good fun (unless I completely fail to get my view across).
    Yeah... I think this is the key difference. :[
    Maybe we could crack a few jokes throughout the debate to lighten it. I don't really know what else to do, but I definitely come off as more rigid than my ENTP friend.

    Quote Originally Posted by Avatar7 View Post
    INTPs can have an attitude which permeates the debate...It's like "Such and such is obvious you idiot. I can't believe I am having to get everyone else up to speed on this."
    Oh common now!
    I honestly have no idea how people can say that!

    We just really want to express our ideas to people, and I've always listened very carefully to what everyone has to say before picking it apart.

    See... it's not the person that I'm criticizing, it's the inaccuracies in their argument! No one's an idiot. Everyone has an intelligent point somewhere in their words... they're just missing some other bit of information, which I point out.

    But yeah. I realize that it doesn't come off that way.
    Someone help. How can I stop offending people just by talking? :[

    Arghghghgh gah gah :confused:

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