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  1. #51
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    Estimated Frequencies of Types - CAPT.org

    Its come up a lot, might be able to search the forum for other talks on it. As a challenge, I dare you to find the first instance that showed the 70:30 mix... it took me a very very long time
    I've seen that link before, but have yet to see the methodology for getting the numbers. I guess that comes from the sociologist in me (one of my undergrad majors)....and the knowledge that almost any social science study can be manipulated into giving you the results you want. I know, I'm a dork.

    The 70/30 reference I have is from the book Life Types by Sandra Hirsh and Jean Kummerow, copyrighted in 1989, page 20. As I said in my previous post, I know my source is outdated.

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    Thank you for the link on their methodology, I'd not seen it when I tried to find it before...though their own admission in the discussion of the samples, both introversion and intuition may be overrepresented based upon the inherent characteristics ("selection bias") of the sample group.

    Sorry, it's just my nature to over-analyze. Please don't take it as my questioning the validity of your assertion, just whether you can back it up (which you can.) Sidebar over, back to on-point discussion

  4. #54
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ms. M View Post
    I've seen that link before, but have yet to see the methodology for getting the numbers. I guess that comes from the sociologist in me (one of my undergrad majors)....and the knowledge that almost any social science study can be manipulated into giving you the results you want. I know, I'm a dork.

    The 70/30 reference I have is from the book Life Types by Sandra Hirsh and Jean Kummerow, copyrighted in 1989, page 20. As I said in my previous post, I know my source is outdated.
    I'm sure the full information is out there, but from memory, roughly 400,000 of the records come from consultants in the workplace, split between Form F and G (and probably some Ms now). Roughly the same amount are from academics. I believe under 100,000 are from high school and special other scenarios split over 30 or so years.

    I guess it depends on how percise you need it to be in order to be happy with the results. To put it in perspective, the 30/70 split was done under less ideal conditions with a badly validated instrument with selective bias While I don't know exactly how perfect the million odd records for MBTI tests support the 50/50, it is certainly better than the backing for the 30/70 split.

    ---

    Dammit! I'm recording that link right now Prot :P Lemme see how close I was... A fair bit off. Oh well, not horrific... only a 10:1 ratio on the high school tests. GAH.

  5. #55
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ms. M View Post
    Thank you for the link on their methodology, I'd not seen it when I tried to find it before...though their own admission in the discussion of the samples, both introversion and intuition may be overrepresented based upon the inherent characteristics ("selection bias") of the sample group.

    Sorry, it's just my nature to over-analyze. Please don't take it as my questioning the validity of your assertion, just whether you can back it up (which you can.) Sidebar over, back to on-point discussion
    No problem I'd much rather people ask for data than just pull stuff out of the abyss of their ass.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    I'm sure the full information is out there, but from memory, roughly 400,000 of the records come from consultants in the workplace, split between Form F and G (and probably some Ms now). Roughly the same amount are from academics. I believe under 100,000 are from high school and special other scenarios split over 30 or so years.

    I guess it depends on how percise you need it to be in order to be happy with the results. To put it in perspective, the 30/70 split was done under less ideal conditions with a badly validated instrument with selective bias While I don't know exactly how perfect the million odd records for MBTI tests support the 50/50, it is certainly better than the backing for the 30/70 split.

    To be honest, when it comes to sociological (and I suppose by extension psychological) reviews, I'd prefer a completely random/blind study, where they know next to nothing about the background of the person being questioned. Unfortunately, such a sample is next to impossible to produce in social studies....sigh. I wouldn't be surprised to see most (if not all) of the dichotomies to be close to 50/50 in a genuinely random sample.
    Last edited by Ms. M; 09-17-2007 at 09:17 PM. Reason: Spelling correction...ugh it's getting late

  7. #57
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ms. M View Post
    To be honest, when it comes to sociological (and I suppose by extension psychological) reviews, I'd prefer a completely random/blind study, where they know next to nothing about the background of the person being questioned. Unfortunately, such a sample is next to impossible to produce in social studies....sigh. I wouldn't be surprised to see most (if not all) of the dichotomies to be close to 50/50 in a genuinely random sample.
    The control samples that I know of, and I'm not an MBTI guy so I can't say for sure, have shown the strong N:S 70-30 divide. How random? I don't know, but it seems pretty much the norm.

    I'd recommend sending Rivercrow a PM - she isn't around much right now but she'd be able to answer your concerns. Having MBTI being commercial makes it difficult to get access to all the information. "Student ID not accepted here" signs always float around my head

  8. #58
    filling some space UnitOfPopulation's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ms. M View Post
    I'm sorry, it's the nitpicky lawyer in me, but proteanmix, do you have any evidence to support the assertion that the U.S. is roughly 50/50 for extraversion versus introversion? I have an outdated book that indicates it's 70E/30I, and would be interested in reliable updated statistics. Thanks!
    Please do not read this question and idea of mine as combative, but I have something unclear about this.

    The way I see it, psychometric (as well as other) "measurements" produce values that reside on a continuum, with some distribution. Then to make that a dictomy, some dividing line is chosen.

    If one's purpose were to tell as much of the value in question, one would do best to put the dividing value at the average value. Now the average value may not necessarily be the median, i.e. to divide the sample in half.

    So I would ask, has there been any realeased information on what kind of distribution type the S/N resembles? Normal distribution, or something else?

    The situation becomes more difficult, if there is a non-linear correlation between the value in the test and it's significance to some other measure.
    Last edited by UnitOfPopulation; 09-18-2007 at 06:14 AM.

  9. #59
    Senior Member INTJMom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Santtu View Post
    I think it's a shame of having to choose between T and F. Does the T side handle the emotions adequately, and is it fun and ethical? Does the F side handle thinking adequately, and is it consistent and logical?

    I have sometimes been unsure of my preference, thinking that I'm in the middle. Then seeing NT vs NF forums has been the deciding factor, as NF topics have seemed ok and lovely, they are not such topics that I think constantly about.

    Also when going too deep in the NF terrain I feel sometimes coming across as ridiculous and hurt. NT feelinglessness is kind of dull emotionally and leaves much to be desired, but NT type intellectual goals are damned great to do, and they work better for me than NF things.

    Have you been uncertain of your preference on the T/F scale and what made you decide which one you are?
    I struggled between T & F for 3 years!
    We develop our dominant function around age 6
    and our auxiliary function around age 12,
    so what I did was I went back in my mind to my childhood
    and thought about how I was back then.

    In simple terms the most outstanding characteristic of a T is that they are tactless.
    They are brutally honest, with themselves and others.
    Children who a primarily F are diplomatic and care about people's feelings.

    As a matter of fact, it was Kiersey's section on children's type in Please Understand Me that helped me with this.

    The T child might ask why they have to do something,
    where the F child wants to please.

    Also, I read the differences between NT and NF.

    The Fs I know seem to be natural born diplomats.
    They say things in such a nice way, even if it's something kind of critical.

  10. #60
    Senior Member TenebrousReflection's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTJMom View Post
    I struggled between T & F for 3 years!
    We develop our dominant function around age 6
    and our auxiliary function around age 12,
    so what I did was I went back in my mind to my childhood
    and thought about how I was back then.

    In simple terms the most outstanding characteristic of a T is that they are tactless.
    They are brutally honest, with themselves and others.
    Children who a primarily F are diplomatic and care about people's feelings.

    As a matter of fact, it was Kiersey's section on children's type in Please Understand Me that helped me with this.

    The T child might ask why they have to do something,
    where the F child wants to please.

    Also, I read the differences between NT and NF.

    The Fs I know seem to be natural born diplomats.
    They say things in such a nice way, even if it's something kind of critical.
    I gave consideration to that idea as well for trying to figure out my preferences, but as mentioned by others in this thread, at least for males in the U.S. F behaviour tends to be discouraged and at best not rewarded so many of us end up adapting and trying to become somethign we are not. I do think looking at our past has a lot of validity in trying to make this analysis, but in doing so its important to ask yourself if what you were doing at that time felt completley natural to you or if you felt you were doing it either to meet expections, try to fit it, or just avoid being criticized for it.

    With the exception of imaginary friends, I see myself displaying Ni at an early age and don't see any problem with that stage of my development.

    In my teens (and earlier) I also worked on various T type interests (math, computer science etc) while at the same time I was struggling with Fi and Fe related value and emotion issues. During that phase, I think I was simultaneously developing Ti and/or Te (through education and practice of skills) and Fi and/or Fe (through introspection and internal conflicts). The way I see it, I was focused on improving T to adapt to society (the abilities did come naturaly to me and some of them I even enjoyd doing (both then and now)), but I had a natural inclination to F that could not be ignored and I still spent a lot of time focused on intorverted feeling contemplating values and emotions. I can speculate that I would have developed differently if societies values were different, but there is no way to be certain of that.

    I have adapted to the environment by supressing my emotions when in public as well as with people that have known me for a long time. I've gradualy got a lot better at accepting my strong Fi side (and moderate Fe), but only show that side of mself with new people I meet in a non-work environment (or ones in a work environment if they decide they want to get past my cold and aloof appearance to get to know me).

    Thats just the theory I use to explain my T/F conflict. Even though I think Fi is my dominate trait, I've developed Ti and Te as a result of environment and since Fi, Ni and Te are all traits of INTJ, I sometimes think thats a better fit for me than INFJ or INFP. Even though Fi (which would point to INFP) and Ni (which would point to INFJ) are the traits I feel most comfortable using, my Ne and Fe both feel less developed to me than me Ti and Te. It never realy felt un-natural to do thinking related activities of any kind, but if I look at my core values, they are most certainly NF and not NT.

    Here is how I rank my traits accopmapied by how I scored on the cognative processes test. The test felt like it asked too few questions to give it much credibility, but it does match the two aspects I do clearly relate to.

    My ranking -- Test ranking
    1) Fi -- Fi (47.8)
    2) Ni -- Ni (43.0)
    3) Ti -- Ne (29.7)
    4) Si -- Fe (27.9)
    5) Te -- Ti (26.7)
    6) Ne -- Te (23.5)
    7) Fe -- Si (21.4)
    8) Se -- Se (19.8)

    This does also point to a pretty clear NF preference, but when I read descriptions for INFP and INFJ both have a lot of elements I relate to and I find I often get along withe NTs better than NFs so I feel I can't completely rule out the idea of being an NT with an overdevloped Fi when neither INFJ or INFP are a flawless fit.

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